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Comment by dougSF70 | Hacker News Reader

Somehow American Math doesn't have the same connotations. I am witnessing public schools take math out of the curriculum at elementary, middle and high schools. It is a wasted opportunity for young people to learn the beauty of math.

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> I am witnessing public schools take math out of the curriculum at elementary, middle and high schools.

Is that for real? If true, this is ridiculous. Do American authorities want to introduce some kind of education for plebs?

How is such low standard for basic education is even acceptable in the modern world? It’s not only about “beauty of math” but at least basic math is required to help develop some specific cognitive and thinking skills. You can’t leave that part of children’s brain underdeveloped.

And cutting out math from schools you are deleting the future for a huge number of kids. No more future engineers and scientists and programmers etc.

I don’t understand.

Funny you mention that, this was submitted earlier today: Oregon students shouldn’t have to prove they can write or do math to get diploma

https://www.salemreporter.com/posts/4419/oregon-students-sho...

That headline sounds a bit of an editorialized interpretation of the situation. The debate doesn't seem to be whether or not they prove their skills, it is a debate over who they prove them to, and when a change should be implemented.

Yes it's TRUE. In SF the schools district removed Algebra from the middle school curriculum. You should read The Dictators Handbook, it details why dismantling education piece by piece is a great way to stay in power. You'd expect it in a dictatorship but not in SF.

It appears that that move has increased enrollment in higher level math classes in high school: https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/SF-schools-mov...

See also some of the motivation behind the change: https://priceonomics.com/why-did-san-francisco-schools-stop-...

I would argue part of the problem with the American system is that trying to rush students through a rigid curriculum leaves the teachers no choice but to teach by rote memorization and cookie-cutter problems. Slowing down the curriculum is part (but not all) of the fix.

Still, whether or not this policy is good, it takes a lot of spin to turn "San Fransisco is starting algebra a year later" into "witnessing public schools take math out of the curriculum at elementary, middle and high schools", which is what you claimed.

Well, according to that article "Advanced Placement calculus courses has declined by nearly 13 percent over the past two years."

Anyway, the policy was made with intention of forcing equality, not improving math education.

You are both correct, but the comment you were replying to was definitely written in a way that feels misleading about "increased enrollment in higher level math classes in high school".

TL;DR from someone who read the full article: that change caused an increase in Precalculus enrollment and a decrease in AP Calculus enrollment.

Which I don't really feel good about. The quote closer to the end made me feel even worse:

>“For so long, people have held up this idea that AP Calculus is the gold standard (for college admission),” Lizzy Hull Barnes said, a district math supervisor

And those kids haven't entered college at the time of writing, and the article points out that they indeed don't know how this change will affect college admission prospects of those students. Time will tell, and hopefully my bad feeling about this change was misplaced. But given that this was written over 2 years ago (so most of those high school students have graduated by now), and we haven't had a follow-up "this change brought us some great benefits" article, I am afraid the results might have not shown any benefits of this approach.

Happening in Oregon too https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2021/08/gov-kate-brown-s...

Bizarre. Where I am math and English remain king and queen of getting-on-the-schedule. Being "tested subjects" from very early grades, is the main reason. They've all but eliminated recess in elementary, and have reduced hours for things like art & music, to make sure they have plenty of time for them, since school prestige and funding rely heavily on testing well just in those two subjects.

Maybe there's good reason for that? Reading and math are fundamental for a much broader range of occupations than art and music.

Was occupational training ever the primary goal of public schooling -- even back in the days when most people went directly to the workforce afterwards?

That, obedience training, and cultural induction.

You'll have to decide what the "primary" goal is, but there was certainly the sense in the past that a U.S. high school graduate would be suitable for most jobs, either blue collar (shop class used to be quite popular), white collar (academic classes, particularly English), or indeed housewife (home economy). No matter what, though, a mastery of the 3 Rs (reading, writing, and arithmetic) was considered essential to all of these (you have to know arithmetic to balance your checkbook, do taxes, measure for construction, etc.). High school wasn't necessarily a specialized occupational school, but there was an expectation you would be learning useful skills for your future.

That's what I'm getting at -- life skills are much more broad than occupational skills. Art, PE, health, sports, civics, etc. are taught in schools because they produce people with more well-rounded life skills, not because it produces better bankers or factory workers.

It's an open secret among educators that the brightest students learn to read at home. Early math is just practicing the same arithmetic over and over, because the logical skills for algebra just aren't present in a seven-year-old. Art, music, and gym are actually really important in early childhood development, because they develop motor skills. Gym gives gross motor skills and major muscular development, and art and music give fine motor control. Penmanship is also important for developing fine motor control. For young children who can't yet engage in much logical reasoning, developing motor skills is appropriate and important. We tend to think in adult terms about what is the right thing for kids to learn, but small children are not adults and need to develop skills that adults take for granted.

Thanks, that's very interesting! My son's fine motor skills are behind the rest of his development... maybe art and music would help round him out.

Additionally, it's now understood that insufficient exposure to very bright light (say, sunlight) during key years is the main risk factor for nearsightedness. Cutting time outdoors during Winter, for lower-elementary kids (K-2), when school is monopolizing a good portion of daylight hours, is almost certain to increase rates of nearsightedness. Cutting recess in young grades hurts kids' eyes, permanently.

I disagree with algebra being too difficult for a 7 year old. You can learn geometric algebra at 7 with plastic blocks. It's a common way to teach math in Eastern Europe to young children afaik.

Excellent maths teachers can really bring a lot to the table with geometrical approach throughout the years.

That's a shame. Recess and play offer some of the best learning experiences. Our schools are beginning to resemble prisons. Heads down, sit up straight, stare at computer all day.

Wait, why I have been hearing non-stop astro-turfing about "CRT in schools" in the last 6 months and I've never heard once about math being taken out? This sounds really serious, is there more I can read about Math being removed from public schools?

These are the same thing. The policy is to remove educational disparity. Naturally force flows along the path of least resistance - rather than raising everyone up, which is hard, we are simply removing anything difficult from the curriculum, which is much easier (at the expense of actually educating anyone, a goal that nobody cares about much any more).

The easiest way to make equality is to multiply both sides by zero.

Many in teachers' unions don't want to be rated on how badly public schools are doing. It's not all the fault of teachers, granted, but incentives of the union here is not always aligned with the students. Many don't want to hear it, but it needs to be said as a factor.

There are a lot of these initiatives - like Russian math - popping up serving as test cases for how to teach subjects. I think online programs are injecting some badly needed new energy.

> incentives of the union here is not always aligned with the students

I don't know why this would surprise anyone.

The union represents the teachers. It absolutely doesn't represent the students - none of them are members!

As far as a rational teaching union is concerned, the government, the general public, schools, parents, and students, are all the enemy.

I hate to think that about a teachers, but it sure looks that way.

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