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Comment by dpcan | Hacker News Reader

Let's just stop the import of all computers and phones over Patent rulings. HTC and Apple should stick to their guns and deny imports of their products.

Once nobody can buy computers or phones in the U.S. anymore THEN, just MAYBE, Congress will decide to fix this Patent mess.

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Hey, we'll still be able to buy all the computers and consumer electronics that are made in the US.

...

Oh.

Yep. On one hand I'm thrilled about this ruling, since it gives HTC some teeth in negotiations on the Android-related patents Apple is suing them over. On the other hand, I just ordered a new MacBook Air (with Intel graphics, which appear to be in violation of this patent), and I'm hoping it gets to the US before any possible import ban goes into effect.

Further proof that hurting the customer is really all that these patents do.

Considering the increasingly vocal outcry of rampant patent abuse, it's also possible that tech giants begin publicly stating their position towards US patent law: it needn't exist (or one of the many alternatives that have been proposed). If the market can metabolize that, patent law reform isn't far away.

Couldn't the tech giants cooperate and introduce a system that benefits the top 10% and exclude the long tail of smaller companies? That could be even worse.

I'd argue that the existing system does just that.

The big boys have portfolios of patents that they fling at each other until some sort of cross-licensing deal is reached, whilst smaller players just have to cross their fingers and hope that nobody decides to tax them too extravagantly.

I omit the possibility of creating non-infringing products simply because it's virtually impossible to bring any meaningful product to market without infringing on somebody's overly broad patent.

Worse? That is exactly what we have right now!

They are still suing each other. There could be a system where there is a cartel that only sues the small ones.

That's already happening. Google, MS, Apple, IBM, Intel, AMD/ATI, nVidia, AT&T and a few others already have cross-licensing deals essentially between everyone and everyone. It's just that HTC and Samsung are not part of _this_ cartel.

That is the current system's default mode of operation. What do you think MPEG LA is?

That's essentially the situation in hardware. All the big players have portfolios of patents which they swap in cross-licensing deals. As a newcomer you have no chance of breaking into the business since you don't have a portfolio of your own - you'd get sued out of business.

I would agree except that a bunch of companies just bought some patents for $4.5 billion. If patents become ineffective, the value of that purchase is $0. Very few companies are going to look on this as a positive thing.

They already purchased those patents, though. It's kind of a sunk cost. They wouldn't be losing $4.5 billion cash if patents became worthless, they'd be losing ammunition for a type of fight that they wouldn't have to deal with anymore.

That's like saying, "We can't stop fighting this war, then all our guns would be worthless."

It's very much like saying that, which doesn't mean it's not persuasive reasoning. It may not be ultimately rational reasoning, but it appeals to many people. That's why it's called the sunk cost fallacy. :)

Yep, I was referring to the fallacy. I know people don't always make rational decisions—and there are many other considerations here besides—but I thought it worth pointing out that it's not quite so obvious that the large companies would be against patent dissolution.

That seems like a very common thing for people to say just after buying 4.5 billion USD worth of weapons.

Bad analogy. The war isn't over patents, it's general competition. It's more like the UN pushing you to sign a treaty pledging not to use nukes just after you spent a pile acquiring them.

Now if patents were only used defensively (which they're obviously not in this case, since Apple went on the attack) the analogy would then be banning ballistic missiles right after acquiring a ballistic missile defense system, which would be easier to swallow.

You're inferring something that wasn't intended. Your peace-treaty example was exactly the type of situation my analogy was referring to.

Patents are being used aggressively because that's the nature of competition—if anyone is going to use them that way, everyone has to. But it could be in everyone's interest if that option were removed from the table, regardless how much each had previously spent amassing an arsenal simply to remain competitive.

The war is over patents, far above and beyond general competition. If that weren't the case, then we wouldn't have so many patent trolls, who have decided that it's more profitable to sue over patents than to actually make products and compete in a consumer marketplace. The Android smartphone vendors aren't just trying to shut out any potentially superior competitors from the market, they're spending billions on patents so that they can have a chance at a fraction of Apple's monstrous profits.

Potential revenues from patents aren't a sunk cost...

The reason companies acquire and add to their massive stockpiles of patents is because, like arms races, no one wants to stop playing the game until the game is called off. Unlike arms races, patents are intellectual creations and the "game" can be ended simply by setting precedents in court and reforming existing law.

Exactly correct. And Google has unilaterally disarmed and it ain't turning out so well for them.

Wait, in the news today: "Google Looks to InterDigital to Strengthen Patent Portfolio". So like everybody else they are buying even more ammo for the gun they keep in the nightstand drawer.

How about following existing precedents? Flook is good precedent, as reiterated in the recent Bilski decision. Just about every software patent we talk about on HN would be invalidated if that precedent were followed.

Make the reform law not apply to old patents, only new patents. So when the existing patents expire we only use the new rules. This is a win-win.

That is unilateral disarmament and a huge barrier to entry for every new startup.

What Congress considers patent reform and what you, and many on this site, consider patent reform hold to two distinct philosophies.

Congress is part of the problem. Even if they fixed patents, they would just screw something else up. The checks and balances of the US government aren't working. We need a free market of governments, so that if we don't like one, we just switch to a better one. Competition would provide the check and balance, like it does for everything else. This isn't possible at present because it is impractical or impossible for most people to switch governments. But imagine how quickly governments would fix this stuff if the people just left for somewhere better. It would be fixed instantly.

Remember that government is the monopoly of the application of force.

When you have a competitive market in force...

Then governments would be less forceful because people do not like to be forced to do stuff.

I read that to imply that war is application of governmental free markets. You would still need some governing government to ensure that all the free market governments don't eliminate eachother. And now you're back to the same thing.

...you have the world as it is. You can already move to change governments, only now you have to move farther than you used to. Notice how most of the oppression in the US is from the federal government, not state or municipal ones. We are predisposed to support government as a holdover from our instincts about tribal politics, but tribes never got anywhere near as big as 1/4 billion people. That immense power abuses result should surprise no one.

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