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Comment by dbg31415 | Hacker News Reader

Much more reasonable than an employer mandating a vaccine to return to an office setting.

If you don't want to get vaccinated at work, it's perfectly reasonable to require you to wear a mask, and to produce two negative COVID tests a week, on your own time, at your own expense.

Employers routinely ask blue collar workers to piss in a cup, or undergo medical examinations. I don't see why white collar workers should be treated much differently.

Those of us who are vaccinated have done our part. Now, it's up to those that aren't to do theirs.

Once people are mandated to return to the office, they will not tolerate working alongside unvaccinated coworkers.

Can you sue your employer if you get covid from a colleague and they didn’t mandate vaccinations (but did mandate return to office and your employment would be terminated otherwise)? IANAL.

I think congress put in some protections for.. employers, on this lol

Fully vaccinated, and I don't care in the slightest. The vaccines provide nearly perfect protection against serious outcomes.

I am far more upset by the idea of continuing this indefinitely. Desperately want to be back in the office.

People who want to return to work should be allowed to do so. Those who do not should be allowed to do so. May the most productive employees win.

"Nearly perfect" is doing a lot of work there. I am perfectly fine with offices, conferences, etc. mandating vaccines for people. ADDED: People do have a choice, especially at companies not requiring people to come back to offices.

Nearly perfect protection for you, maybe. Catching it when vaccinated is still unpleasant for many, can wreck social plans if you have to isolate, and puts you at risk of passing it on to someone more vulnerable.

Already you sound adversarial, like this is a battle of work cultures and you want your side to win. You say things like "return to work", as if the people who are working from home aren't already working. Did you mean your comment to come across this way?

No, you're reading into it.

I think that both sides of this issue should be allowed to do whatever they want to do, and we'll find out what the result is.

Not if you have children under 12.

Children are at exceptionally low risk from Covid. The data is simply overwhelming.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28041775

I don't understand how after nearly one and a half years into this pandemic, people still keep parroting "but what about the children!". There is close to 0 (zero, nada, zilch) risk to children from COVID-19. You're much better off worrying about the other more dangerous things that can kill children.

"The vaccines provide nearly perfect protection against serious outcomes."

I am vaccinated, however, my young child is not. If I get a breakthrough case, I don't want to spread it to my kid. I know this is anecdotal, but... my wife's office just closed because of a breakthrough case, and another friend was recently exposed to someone with a breakthrough case.

Children are at exceptionally low risk from Covid. The data is simply overwhelming.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28041775

I disagree, and I'm surprised the White House isn't trying to work with big employers to try to get them to mandate the vaccine. That would get a huge chunk of the population. Not many are going to quit their job over a shot. Walmart, Kroger, Amazon, etc are some of the biggest employers in the US.

You have to feel bad for Amazon Warehouse workers reading this headline though.

Why wouldn't the federal government just mandate a vaccine?

Putting it on employers is yet another sign of cowardice in our leadership.

Each business shouldn't have to sort this out... it's too complex of an issue.

If there's going to be a mandate, make a real mandate.

People misunderstood my point. I don't think this should be on employers. I think that's bad for a lot of reasons.

It should be on governments.

BUT... bigger picture, it's not like these vaccine cards are hard to fake. I was vaccinated in March, but I have no way of proving that. I didn't bother to save my vaccine card. It was just a generic piece of paper with the company's logo and two hastily written vaccine lot numbers though. Again... nobody checked my ID. No real way to prove you were vaccinate. It's a mess.

Should have tied stimulus grants to getting vaccinated. Should have set up a vaccine registration system. Nope... government fucked up, and is now passing the buck on to businesses.

Let's say the vaccine does give us all tails in 20 years... can I sue my employer? I sure can. The government isn't even giving businesses any protection.

Total joke. Worst possible way to do this on every front.

> Why wouldn't the federal government just mandate a vaccine?

Because it would never hold up in court? Even in countries outside the US their mandates are bordering on illegal. If the federal government mandated vaccines, who is going to enforce it anyhow? You can't. Local law enforcement is not under federal jurisdiction. Even if the Federal government had some sort of strong law enforcement arm, it wouldn't work. A lawsuit would immediately be filed, and at best it would go straight to SCOTUS and (rightfully) shot down or it would sit at trial for months/years.

The easiest and best way is through employer mandates because 99% of people are not going to lose their job over a shot and they have total legal authority. Monetary incentives are vastly more legal and moral.

To the contrary on your point, a federal mandate on all citizens is weak/awful leadership considering it would never work and would immediately be revoked by the courts. That decision would likely also be bipartisan. The same is probably going to happen with the eviction moratorium; Biden's extension is on incredibly shaky legal grounds and is probably going to be overturned.

What about those who want to return? They have no choice even if vaccinated.

I feel that returning should be optional but only available for the vaccinated. That enables choice whereas no one allowed to return at all does not enable choice.

My coworkers who do want to return (our offices are open on a voluntary basis) want to make everyone else return too because there’s no reason for them to go in if there’s only 10 people there.

Personally I have friends outside of work, so I haven’t been in.

This is the worst thing about people who prefer working in the office: they aren't satisfied by going in, they need to force others to go into the office to keep them company. At least those of us who prefer permanent wfh don't impact other people's decisions. And worst of all are executives and managers who want people in chairs to make them feel important and noticed.

>At least those of us who prefer permanent wfh don't impact other people's decisions.

Sort of. Once you have a cohort back in the office, they probably should be meeting over video because having a group in a conference room and a group remote in their home offices doesn't work well. Of course people in the office mostly won't do that and communications will be worse than fully remote.

As it doesn't solve what they hate about remote work, i.e. the Zoom and not getting to chat with people.

This is why I don't think hybrid will work.

I think you're right, and I think it will motivate those of us who want to work remotely to quit and find companies that have that as their culture and let the "back to the office" folks become more homogenized.

Currently at a hybrid company spread out across multiple offices. So all that happened was that we moved our meetings from our home offices to our open office desks.

A lot of people come to the office vs. remote question from a place where "office" means that almost everyone you ever interact with is a few dozen steps away. For many of us, it's more like thousands of miles. In fact, if I go into either of the closest offices, I know almost no one there and even fewer who are likely to actually be in the office if I drop in.

What, you don't think your employer should control your medical decisions?? /s

Its amazing to me how people have thrown their bodily autonomy out the window when there is suddenly a new risk.

I love that the conversation is always around personal "bodily autonomy" despite the fact that your decision to not get vaccinated affects every single other person with whom you come into contact.

Freedom of speech doesn't cover shouting "fire" in a crowded movie theatre.

Personal liberty at the expense of the liberty of others is a sick joke, and to pretend that the vaccine conversation is anything else is hysterically naive.

People do have an autonomous choice: get your shot, or find another way to stop endangering those around you.

First, you can yell fire in a crowded theatre. What if there really is a fire?

Alcohol kills plenty of people each year, and often it’s not the drinker. Should we ban alcohol? (I hear you, but employers can ban drinking at work!) Sure, but the equivalent would be forcing someone to not drink outside of work. After all, can you turn the vaccine off when you leave the office?

I’m fine with an employer mandating masks, they can be removed after your shift.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_the...

It’s normal that most people prioritize the social responsibility to prevent the spread of a deadly virus.

Ive already had covid. I am immune and don’t spread it. I already meet your requirements. But why must I go further and modify my body unnecessarily?

Because we don’t know if you’re immune. We do know vaccines help even for those who have contracted the virus. Therefore, it’s necessary for you to get vaccinated.

Do you mean, we don't know if I'm immune but spreading, or can't prove that I'm immune (no negative test)?

Assuming the first, I guess we'll have to wait for the data. Assuming the second, I haven't ever been assumed sick until proven healthy. I've been sick many times in my life, and I voluntarily self-isolate to protect others. But suddenly this is considered selfish. I must prove health or be exiled until I conform.

Are you not worried about losing your freedom? Or was this a freedom you never valued? The specific freedom I mean was choosing what goes in your body.

Thank you for your honest response. Most people just downvote and scroll on.

Are you allowed to drive on the job when under medication? The US military gives a huge number of vaccines to its servicemen and woman. Lots of companies require periodic drug tests. Airlines definitely restrict you. The list goes on and on.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com