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>I've still not heard a single good argument for not vaccinating despite reading most anti-vax comments on this post.

Because if I put something in my body only because my master tells me to, I am a slave. Through and through. Bodily autonomy is absolute. It's different than the Modern American definition of slavery, which is mostly based on the New World forms of slavery, which are related to but different than the Old World forms of slavery. But they are all slavery. Either you have control of your corpus or you do not.

You were vaccinated as a child and you're presumably perfectly fine. And it's not about you. It's about not being selfish to end a pandemic that affects other people a lot worse than it does you.

We allow parents to make decisions for children up to a certain age. I'm definitely not arguing that.

It is about me. A population is made up of individual people. Those individual people have rights. Given a choice of a population of X size who surrender the rights to govern their body, vs a population of free willed humans of (X - (00.03 * X)), I would gladly take the latter, including as a casualty. Humanity under authoritarianism is never morally acceptable, regardless of how benevolent my dictator appears to be.

This is an argument against tyranny, but it isn't an argument against vaccination.

From your comment:

> Because if I put something in my body only because my master tells me to, I am a slave.

So don't do it for that reason. Do it because it will save your (and other people's) life.

That's an entirely reasonable position to take.

Sure, but it's not the only reasonable position to take.

What are your concerns if you were to do it? Is it purely to take a stance?

Concern over long term effects of mRNA therapy, of which I've found little evidence

Concern over long term effects of the spike protein presented by COVID-19, both attached to the virus and free-floating within my body as a result of mRNA therapy.

Concern over long term ability for my cells to accurately recreate the spike protein. From what I've read, this is actually low concern on my scale, the capping seems pretty thorough.

Concern over my body creating an immunoresponse to organs/nearby cells/systems where the spike protein has accumulated

Concern over my immune system being able to form a strong defense in the future over different coronaviruses when it's been trained to work outside it's normal operational parameters.

Concern over the hubris of mankind and the house of cards that is our trust in the peer review system.

Concern over the lack of experiment replication done in the modern medical fields

Concern over the fact that some of these companies have shady history, including knowingly selling me asbestos to keep my testicle dry during the summer heat.

Concern over the lack of transparency in the bridges between pharma lobbyists and government, politicians and media, and media and pharma corps.

Concern over the lack of transparency in more broader sense.

Concern over the obvious astroturfing on social media, of multiple "influencers" posting the same copy and pasted messages, the bot responses, the general fiscal funding behind this debate.

Concern over the future implications of us accepting, as a society, the weaponization of fear, and the saving graces of corporations.

Concern over our willingness to change our lives in drastic manners because of the justification that it may save a life, which I see as an endless justification opportunity for future world leaders.

Concern over turning fear into a virtue.

This is why the pandemic is nowhere near over. People who don't read data taking a political stance just because it's their right.

definitely not the issue of people handwaving away concerns as being unfounded or uneducated. thanks for showing me the truth.

I read data. A friend is working on the vaccine for Novavax - him and his family will not be vaccinated anytime within this decade. This is very quickly turning into an endemic virus cycle like most others throughout history. We've been trying to eradicate the coronavirus family for at least 70 years with 0 results. This is a leaky vaccine, and breakthrough case numbers reported by Pfizer to the FDA don't paint a rosy picture (somewhere between 14-24%; they don't know, they didn't really test those people in their initial trials, they just assumed they had Covid based on symptoms, which is why they keep stressing that even though you've had your vaccinations, you're still at risk of infection and spreading the disease). Look at the numbers of fully vaccinated people in Israel currently hospitalized. I'd rather NYC enforced high quality diet and mandatory exercise than a newfangled vaccine. But I know, people just want the magic pill....every year...for the rest of their lives.

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-644288348135

Your anecdotal evidence from a friend isn't data.

Not just my friend, my friend. Everybody who worked on encapsulating the mRNA vaccine knows why the compound was not allowed for human use previously, and why they've all had to show the same diligence (because it caused clots which lead to stroke-outs and heart attacks in animal trials).

Your link shows what exactly? That yes, the majority of people with Covid currently, and majority of hospitalized (severely ill other words) are fully vaccinated.

Read the article, then respond. #1 you don't know everyone who worked on it, and #2 the entire point of the article is this is WAY lower than their prevaccinated days in January.

I'm not arguing wether the vaccine keeps some people out of the hospital, I've read the article broski. The article points out what some Israeli doctors are seeing; to quote one "80-90% of my covid cases are 100% vaccinated". This vaccine is coming up short and is probably causing more harm than good in the long run; we're heading into an endemic cycle. Everyone (each company) that has worked on mRNA vaccines in the last 10 years+ are facing the same ethical dilemma, as all of the compounds have not been approved for human use. Just saying what the virologist tells me. Go nuts with your vaccine ingestion (I don't care what you do one way or the other), but I would stay with Sputnik or the Sino vaccines especially if you have a history of blood clots or genetic predisposition to heart conditions.

> The article points out what some Israeli doctors are seeing; to quote one "80-90% of my covid cases are 100% vaccinated".

You seem to think this is bad or something? As the vaccine rate increases of course more patients will be vaccinated. If the vaccine rate was 100% then 100% of people seen would be vaccinated!

The number of people being hospitalised has decreased hugely though.

> Everyone (each company) that has worked on mRNA vaccines in the last 10 years+ are facing the same ethical dilemma, as all of the compounds have not been approved for human use.

Well this isn't true at all.

> I would stay with Sputnik or the Sino vaccines especially if you have a history of blood clots or genetic predisposition to heart conditions.

I don't know much about the Sino vaccine, but Sputnik is a adenovirus-based vaccine (the same as AstraZeneca). It probably has the same blood clotting issues as AZ, but the places it has been deployed have much less robust post vaccine medical surveillance.

But it's good you'd take it! I'd encourage you to do so ASAP.

It is bad. When 80% of your hospitalizations (serious conditions) have gotten two jabs of the mRNA vaccine. Hospitalizations in my state are only increasing, and its not the un-vaccinated, it's those that believe being vaccinated means you no longer hold any risk with relation to spreading the virus.

The blood clots from AstraZeneca have not been thoroughly investigated - we don't know the pathways involved. By the way, the mRNA vaccines are producing many more blood clot calls into triage lines and offices than AZ (prolly because of slow rollout here).

>I'd encourage you to do so ASAP.

Why would you encourage me to do something my body doesn't need?

> Look at the numbers of fully vaccinated people in Israel currently hospitalized.

The country’s Health Ministry reported last week that the two-dose vaccine is now just 39% effective in Israel where the highly transmissible delta variant is the dominant strain. The shot still works very well in preventing people from getting seriously sick, Israeli officials said, demonstrating 88% effectiveness against hospitalization and 91% effectiveness against severe illness.[1]

So 88% effective against Delta-strain COVID causing hospitalization. That seems pretty good!

I think many people saying "look at Israel" are looking at the decreased effectiveness in stopping any symptoms against Delta-COVID and think that - disappointing - headline figure (39%) is the protection against hospitalisation rate. It's not, fortunately.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/29/delta-variant-israel-to-give...

I mean that's fantastic. My immune system is also highly effective against corona viruses, fungal infections, and other pathogenic microbes. To each his own.

> My immune system is also highly effective against corona viruses, fungal infections, and other pathogenic microbes.

It sure is! Once it has had a look at the virus to know to act against it.

That is literally what a vaccine is - a way to give your immune system an early look at a pathogen so it knows to act next time it sees it.

Thanks for the lesson. This is exactly how your immune system already functions. No need to set yourself up for risks with jabs if you've got a genetic precondition for various diseases related to routine vaccinations. I'm glad we agree.

> him and his family will not be vaccinated anytime within this decade.

because of the nanoparticle adjuvant that enacpsulates the subunit? yeah that's been on the top of my mind too, but covaxin is a traditional inactivated virus and it confers 70+% efficacy. my question is, if a vaccine that is the same genetic material (maybe a little less, but not heavily modified like mrna or run through the moth/tree approach like novavax) then why are we ignoring those who were actually infected?

food for thought: long covid is H O R R I B L E, and that should be everyones reason to take a vaccine.. but if you don't want to, just be prepared to sit on the sidelines for a year or maybe more. once the pandemic, as defined by the government, ends then you are on your own. there is already less patience for those who need to take extended time from work for a covid positive result

Long covid is highly debated as the evidence for such a disease is currently very weak, but we will see it crystallize in the next few years I suppose. Many in the health field see it as another psychologically-induced disease. Who knows? Let us not forget that every single viral infection that attacks the body, is likely to leave at least some long term damage or change (no matter how slight), and certainly the unlucky few have severe long term damage even from the flu.

>save your life

How do you know he wasn't already infected and thus has natural immunity? So how is this saving her or his life?

Why aren't we testing for those who actually need this vaccine or not (because antibody tests don't work very well and no one wants to improve that metric because thats not where the money is)

You have the choice to be vaccinated or not - businesses and have the choice to refuse to provide service to the unvaccinated, private property and all. And society has the right to insist on vaccines to participate. We all have rights and yours don’t cancel out others.

TLA is about a local government mandating that businesses check for vaccination status. That's infringing on rights of the businesses, "private property and all."

In the US, you most certainly do not. Are you unaware of drug laws, for example? By your logic, you are now and always have been a slave, and so is everyone else. What was once a useful word is now meaningless.

What? Vaccination absolutely is a medical procedure. How could you say otherwise?

It's now clear that these injections do not have the efficacy of what has traditionally been termed a "vaccination," but they're definitely being marketed as a preventative, or therapeutic medical intervention.

Weird comment this one...

Getting a shot is not a medical procedure and more than going to the dentist is. The efficacy is still much, much higher than not being vaccinated. I'm not sure I see what you're getting at.

>I've still not heard a single good argument for not vaccinating despite reading most anti-vax comments on this post.

The obvious good reason is you have one of the many pre-existing conditions that prevent you from getting the vaccine without causing yourself further risk of long term organ damage/failure caused by you previously taking other mandatory vaccines on a regular basis (healthcare workers, vasculitis is one such group of diseases common among the RN population - but what do they know, those front line workers with their anti-vaxx mumbo-jumbo).

The other obvious reason is another simple one - it seems its completely unnecessary for any relatively "healthy" person such as myself to worry about this virus. Our immune systems are designed for this battle, and based on the death rates, it seems despite the US population being very obese and largely unhealthy with a fairly high diabetes rate, we're somehow not dying in droves.

Third reason, vaccinations against every single little virus that comes along is effectively practicing negative selection. I think we all can assume where that leads especially with a leaky vaccine like this one - large scale true extinction event. We're breeding superbugs by vaccinating large scale populations, instead of small targeted vaccine administration.