NYC to Require Proof of at Least 1 Dose Indoors at Restaurants, Gyms and More | Hacker News Reader

NYC to Require Proof of at Least 1 Dose Indoors at Restaurants, Gyms and More

nytimes.com

I don't think this is going to go over too well.

You know what would make requirements like these much more palatable? If there was accommodation for people who already have antibodies (ie have been infected and recovered).

There is mounting evidence that people with naturally acquired immunity will not significantly benefit from further vaccination [1][2].

This is a strong argument for strategically targeting our vaccination efforts toward the highest risk populations: elderly with comorbidities, and people who have not yet been exposed and lack access to modern healthcare facilities (ie rural populations in developing countries).

Alas, the rhetoric from the top continues to maintain that - as quoted in the article - this is a "pandemic of the unvaccinated".

As a final point, what also seems to be chronically left out, is the evidence that combinations of existing medicines have proven very effective at preventing hospitalization and death [3].

[1] SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells in humans https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03647-4.pdf

[2] Necessity of COVID-19 vaccination in previously infected individuals https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v...

[3] Multifaceted highly targeted sequential multidrug treatment of early ambulatory high-risk SARS-CoV-2 infection (COVID-19) https://scholarlycommons.henryford.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a...

> There is mounting evidence that people with naturally acquired immunity will not significantly benefit from further vaccination

It's a shame that the mainstream, public health narrative unquestioningly rejects prior infection as an alternative. All substantial evidence points to the contrary.

That said, identifying those who've legitimately had a prior infection is rather difficult. There are no "I had a PCR-confirmed infection" passports. A large and unlikely fraction of the population believes they were infected, with endless anecdotes about illnesses at the end of 2019 and beginning of 2020. Furthermore, vaccination really shouldn't pose any undue risk to this population.

But, yeah, it's yet another unforced error by public health officials (or at least the media interpreting and relaying their guidance) to outright reject this argument.

Well put, and I definitely agree on the point of verifying prior infection being difficult and costly.

> Furthermore, vaccination really shouldn't pose any undue risk to this population

I also agree with this point, and it is corroborated by the primary sources I've reviewed. That said, I want to emphasize that it doesn't seem like a good tradeoff to waste vaccines on people who will not benefit from it, especially if that precludes vaccinating the most vulnerable populations across the world.

> There are no "I had a PCR-confirmed infection" passports

Despite its name the EU COVID vaccination certificate also covers recording PCR-confirmed infections and even tests.

It is open source so even less developed countries like the US could use it if they wanted to.

Interesting. Thank you for pointing that out. The "less developed" comment may have turned some people off, but FWIW:

> An EU Digital COVID Certificate is a digital proof that a person has either 1) been vaccinated against COVID-19, 2) received a negative test result, or 3) recovered from COVID-19.

Regarding negative tests it says:

> The Member States agreed on a standard validity period for tests: 72 hours for PCR tests and, where accepted by a Member State, 48 hours for rapid antigen tests.

Source: https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-re... (reformatted from original as plain text)

I wonder what the standard is for "recovered from COVID-19"; i.e. whether it's just a doctor's diagnosis, contemporaneous PCR confirmation, or subsequent antibody test.

I think op meant to link to this article:

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/08/03/world/covid-delta-va...

I still don't understand what risk the unvaccinated pose to the vaccinated that justifies these extremely heavy handed mandates.

Why 1 dose, why not fully vaccinated?

I assume it's a quick incentive. "Get your vaccine today, then you can get into the gym/restaurant/etc tomorrow!"

If you are trapped there, maybe you have no choice, but why would one willingly visit a place that treats you like that? I have my vaccinations, but I would not spend money anywhere that wanted me to prove it. I go out and spend money to relax and enjoy myself, if businesses start to pretend that I owe them something for the privilege of spending money there, I just won't do it. People lose their minds because its covid, but in normal circumstances, invasion of privacy is a pretty good reason not to want to eat or work out somewhere.

Different people have different opinions on things. Different communities have different values. And in general, people who live in a big city tend to have a lot of trust in institutions (governmental and otherwise) and in prioritizing the needs of a community above the theoretical liberty of the individual. People who live in more rural areas tend to be the opposite.

The way I see it, it's not that I owe the business something for the privilege of spending money there - it's that the business offers me additional value, the knowledge that other people there are vaccinated.

You don't have to see it this way, but it's possible for people to see things differently from how you see it.

> trust in institutions

Unless it's the local baptist church telling you about the evils of the gays (right trusting institutions), or Jeff Bezos telling you that the institution which is Amazon is actually a good thing for humanity (left not trusting institutions).

Point is, these sorts of generalizations are generally wrong. Populist distrust of institutions exists on both political poles.

Home schooling your children too? School districts requiring vaccination records for all sorts of things. What invasion of privacy. It’s like they do it to protect other children.

Not sure I see the equivalence between showing my kids have their childhood vaccines before they go to school and having to flash a vaccine pass every time I go to the gym or to eat. Honestly I would rather it was mandated by government and then assumed (not that I think that is compatible with western rights) than having to show this kind of information on request to businesses as I go about my day. Most people here would agree with that for most things - people get bent out of shape about advertising cookies. But somehow covid has made everyone hysterical and no indignity can be too much in the name of preaching and checking for covid orthodoxy. I find it really weird.

ID requirements are draconian, but they are a straightforward reaction to the anti-vax reality-denying hysteria. As a libertarian, this whole saga has been a double punch. When people throw out "freedom" as a justification for their terrible (and ultimately herd-following) decisions, it maligns and undermines the concept itself. And it lets the authoritarians step in and take credit for what should have been common sense.

Drawing a parallel with a different topic - while I believe that drugs shouldn't be illegal, that doesn't mean I would support my friends being junkies. And I certainly wouldn't encourage people to become junkies just to spite the current unjust laws.

> Most people here would agree with that for most things - people get bent out of shape about advertising cookies. But somehow covid has made everyone hysterical and no indignity can be too much in the name of preaching and checking for covid orthodoxy. I find it really weird.

It's actually not that weird. Tracking cookies haven't caused 600,000 deaths and countless hospitalization. The "indignity" of showing your vaccine card, like the indignity of showing your ID to get into a bar or buy alcohol?

I originally brought up home schooling because people seemed shocked anyone can ask for vaccination records. I'm bringing up ID here because you seem shocked that businesses ask for additional records.

> if businesses start to pretend that I owe them something for the privilege of spending money there, I just won't do it.

I've started doing exactly the opposite. Almost every place I spend my money these days caters to reasonable people and quickly kicks out most of the riffraff.

I don't want to go to a business that caters to all customers, because being surrounded by annoying people is miserable. I want to spend my time in an enjoyable ambiance. "Take all comers" places typically aren't that. Doubly so for any place that serves alcohol.

I support businesses with principles: what you cited is materially different. Subjective criteria for annoying people.

Yeah. I'm not looking for a religion. I'm just looking for a good relaxing time. Last thing I want is to deal with some mouth breather don’t tread on my rant while trying to enjoy a cocktail.

I agree with everything you say. But to me, it's places that cater to "riff raff" that I associate with carding for a vaccine pass or whatever. Same as I would never go to a bar that would search my bag, or fly with a discount carrier that treated me like a cow being herded around. The fact that I only go to places that treat me respectfully and as an adult is exactly why I would not go to a place that makes me go though a bunch if hygiene theatre before I can pay them. To me, covid has made lots of businesses reinvent themselves under the economy airline model where customers are stuck with them and have to do what they say, and all service inadequacies are "for your safety". If that's why makes you feel better, none of my business, but it's not for me.

Unfortunately, even flying business won't spare us from the "no tread on me" man-child espousing on his manifesto on security theatre in the airport security line. I'm happy to pay extra for an environment without that sort of exhausting neck beard bullshit polluting the ambiance. Avoiding exactly that crowd is why I TSA PreCheck and pay for lounge access.

I understand the emotion behind this because I often feel the same way myself. But these businesses already have other requirements from their customers that everybody seems to accept just fine, so it’s not easy to draw a hard line here. No shoes or shirt? Sorry, not serving you. Underage? Not coming into my bar.

I'm curious how you feel about having to show ID to enter a bar or buy alcohol?

To me, it seems that showing your home address to every bouncer is a much greater invasion of privacy than vaccination status.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com