Comment by im_down_w_otp | Hacker News Reader

Comment by im_down_w_otp | Hacker News Reader

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Single use stuff seems easy enough to fix. What seems less obvious to me is what I experienced when shopping for a potty chair for our youngest there were dozens of options at just a single store for a big hunk of plastic that's only useful for a period of months. We ended up not buying one at all.

I had a similar experience the last time I was at CES and was deep into the "South Hall" where there's kiosk after display booth after kiosk of just completely pointless crap of every shape and size. Thousands of practically identical cheap cell phone cases. Thousands of cheap bags and backpacks adorned with battery packs and/or Bluetooth speakers. Each and every booth staffed with multiple people who have to stand there and try to convince you that their big mountain of garbage is somehow special. At the same time as it's astonishingly wasteful and kind of insane when you think about it, it's also completely existentially debasing to the people involved.

If we have a global addiction to anything that seems like it needs fixing, it seems like we're addicted to producing stuff we don't need for problems we don't have just for the sake of doing something.

We've gotten a lot of stuff like this free through Facebook groups

Everybody's got aged-out baby crap taking up space in their house, if you can get them before they get off their ass to throw it out they're usually overjoyed for it to disappear

The way most people in Germany would solve this (we need a potty for some months) is buying it 2nd/3rd/4th hand. Is that not common where you live (I guess USA)?

There is a vibrant 2nd hand resale market in the US, mostly fueled by Facebook marketplace and a handful of specialized apps.

However, Americans in general just don't take good care of stuff. Combined with products being designed from the cheapest possible materials, the quality of second hand goods isn't great. People avoid it if they can afford to buy new.

For something like that, definitely not common.

In the middle class and upward, it's not common, outside of folks who are particularly frugal. The post-WWII American culture is extremely consumerist / materialistic.

It's also that it's just easier to go to Walmart or Target (or Amazon) and buy one and be done with it, than to spend the time hunting around garage sales or thrift stores for something they might not have. Unless you really need to save $10, time is way more valuable than money.

According to Norwegian consumer research, people who save those ten dollars usually spend them on something else (like a travel or another product), so the environmental gain from buying used stuff is not a lot.

Unless people are willing to earn a little less, buttons used is not a solution for an individual’s environmental footprint.

If you spend only a fraction of your budget on new stuff, how is it not a gain?

Of course, for immediate-need purchases, nothing beats going to the nearby store or ordering with delivery. But that's not how you handle getting second-hand stuff.

Second-hand stuff is easy to get when you know you need something (or will need it soon), but you're not pressed for time. At any given time, if you look for a second-hand $foo, you may not find it in your area, but there's a good chance you'll find it within a month or two. It's particularly easy with kid stuff - you have ~8 months of advance warning, and most kid items are only used for couple of months, so there's a steady stream of used stuff you can pick from, and a year later, start contributing to, as your kid grows out of their stuff.

What makes second-hand (especially free second-hand) so easy these days is Internet. To start, you want to find and follow three boards for your area: a) Craigslist/Gumtree/equivalent, b) a local giveaway/exchange group, and c) a local "spotted by the side of a trashcan" group. Put stuff you don't need on them, take stuff you need from them, and you're now part of the "reduce, reuse" flow - which is strictly better than "recycle". It doesn't take much time either; following b) and c) is something you do by scrolling through a feed for a minute.

My experience is different. Almost everyone we know gets most of their baby stuff secondhand. They get a bunch of stuff when the baby is born, from older friends with kids. Then they get specific items off NextDoor/Facebook/Craigslist.

I don't know that we'd get a potty used, but we did get used infant bathtubs, which is about the same from a hygienic perspective.

I agree. All of our friends and us get "kids stuff", as well as most of my furniture 2nd hand. My kids are 12 and 14, and outside of certain shoes, they've never worn brand new clothes (same for me and my spouse when we were kids). Why buy when your friends or siblings with older or bigger kids are looking to get rid of clothes as soon as their kids outgrow them? Come to think of it, I don't remember the last time I bought new clothes myself.

The 1920s one wasn't?

Sure, if you were a robber baron or aristocrat. But most people were too busy just trying to survive.

I've gone through three potties and never bought or sold any (we got them for free and then gave them away).

Most of our baby stuff comes (and goes) that way. We rarely bought baby stuff at all except for consumables (and even those we gave away when we didn't use them all up, like diapers).

The big issue is that it requires a social circle of people also having kids that are slightly older and younger, and for a lot of people in bigger cities, it's hard for them to build those circles.

There are online forums that help (non-sarcistic Thanks Facebook!) but it's a lot easier if you have a wide social circle already.

I love how in NZ each town have “play centers” - basically hybrid between daycare and playground where parents join and maintain. You are always there to be with your child, tho I’m sure someone would take care for them if you need to run errand for 1 hour. This forms very healthy community of people and friends and trades like above happen. Toys, clothes, car seats - we got it all free…

We do have some friends who were asking “is this newish?” when gifting some item, so not everyone is on zero waste bandwagon.

And by the way, govs should promote zero waste movement way more. Probably starting adopting it themselves.

I'm in the US and tried donating our child's potty chair. The donation spots I tried refused it because they weren't allowed to take anything which a child has to sit in or on for safety reasons. I even tried Value Village, which is a private second-hand store, and got the same response.

Into the garbage it went, sadly.

Couldn’t you chop it up and put in recycling bin?

Technically yes, but this would not cause it to be recycled.

Think!. To recycle plastic it must be as clean as new plastic and of the same type of plastic. It then needs to be processed into granular pills of the same.This may mean mixing and melting and adding color to a standard color - usually tending towards brownish = used for hidden or structural parts where color does not matter. You can not have any fiber or fiberglass reinforced plastic in the mix - a little ruins the batch. All this costs $$, usually more cost than new material. The only way to drive this is to add an input cost(refundable deposit or tax) to plastic when made or imported - to pay for the sorting and recycling. It makes sense - works with glass beer bottles, but plastics beer soda bottles etc usually have too much grunge to economically clean to the needs of recyclers. We may have to throw away the false economy of plastic by adding a realistic tax/deposit... This has eliminated much recycling.

A lot of plastics that we "recycle" end up in landfills anyway. They are not recyclable because they are contaminated with food (need to wash food containers out before recycling) or they are labeled as "recyclable" but really are not, or are not at every recycling center in the nation. The same is true for cardboard like used greasy pizza boxes with cheese stuck to the bottom are not recyclable yet a heck of a lot of people toss them in the cardboard recycle bin.

> The findings confirm the results of a Guardian investigation last year, which revealed that numerous types of plastics are being sent straight to landfill in the wake of China’s crackdown on US recycling exports. Greenpeace’s findings also suggest that numerous products labeled as recyclable in fact have virtually no market as new products.

> She emphasized that bottles and jugs are indeed worth recycling, but said “our findings show that many items commonly found in beach cleanups – cups, bags, trays, plates and cutlery – are not recyclable. In America’s municipal recycling system, they are contaminants.”

> The US recycling economy was upended in 2018 when China enacted bans on imports of most US recycling, leaving recycling companies at a loose end. The report chronicled how dozens of cities – stretching from Erie, Pennsylvania, to San Carlos, California, – have either stopped taking mixed plastics or are sending them to landfill.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/feb/18/americas-rec...

> need to wash food containers out before recycling (...) used greasy pizza boxes with cheese stuck to the bottom are not recyclable yet a heck of a lot of people toss them in the cardboard recycle bin.

People are not being informed about it clearly enough. Not that it would change much, except discouraging most people from sorting trash.

Beyond being a significant burden, having individuals washing their trash is just ridiculously inefficient and wasteful in terms of water and energy use, plus it would more than double the amount of detergent unloaded into the return leg of water supply loop. It kind of already defeats the point of recycling.

And that's without even getting to the whole "recycling things other than metal and maybe glass is a scam" thing.

I’m less in the “people need to be informed” camp and more in the “products need to be designed for easy recycling” camp.

If we want to recycle pizza boxes as a society, there needs to be a grease absorbing layer that’s clearly marked for the trash, and a recyclable layer with clear instructions. A great example of this is Siggi’s single serving yogurt cups. The paper label is easily separated from the plastic body, with clear instructions that they’re meant to be separated for recycling into separate streams. In my case my municipality doesn’t recycle the plastic they use (#5 IIRC), but at least the paper and metal foil get recycled.

Expecting end consumers to stay up to date on this stuff is just a way for companies to avoid the responsibility of making better packaging.

Exactly. I’m not likely to see spending hot water, soap, and time cleaning my trash as a sensible use of resources. If plastics need to be clean for recycling, they’re not realistically recycled.

To clarify: I'm in your camp too. I just mentioned it because a lot of people don't know that washing recyclable containers before disposing of them is a thing.

> If we want to recycle pizza boxes as a society, there needs to be a grease absorbing layer that’s clearly marked for the trash, and a recyclable layer with clear instructions.

Agreed. And this needs to be built into the packaging, and not be a flimsy piece of paper the restaurant inserts so that the pizza itself doesn't stick to the box.

> A great example of this is Siggi’s single serving yogurt cups. The paper label is easily separated from the plastic body, with clear instructions that they’re meant to be separated for recycling into separate streams.

I've seen this trend and I like it. Paper label being separable also makes it easier to clean and reuse the cup itself. Containers from the yogurt brand we buy can survive a trip through a dishwasher, which helps. Unfortunately, most recyclable plastic containers are not like that.

> Expecting end consumers to stay up to date on this stuff is just a way for companies to avoid the responsibility of making better packaging.

Exactly. Plus, in this case, it's extremely wasteful.

I also blame the packaging problem on advertising/marketing being the cancer of modern society. Notice how professional equipment tends to come in simple cardboard boxes. None of the triple-layered plastic/paper/plastic + paint non-recyclable bullshit. Just straight cardboard and some anti-shock padding.

Companies need to start paying up front for end-of-life management of their products and packaging. It's the most market-friendly way to align incentives on the topic.

A better solution for pizza boxes is an industrial composting collection that can take all food scraps and food soiled paper products. instead of adding something that may end up plastic or wax coated trash, we can reduce materials used and "recycle" in a different way.

Even if that would be effective, it is not practical to ask people to "chop up" their heavy plastic items just to throw them away. That requires tools, light skill, and time, that not everyone is able or willing to commit to the cause.

We bought ours second hand at a consignment sale.

Same; Craigslist, Nextdoor, and Facebook marketplace too.

American safety helicopter parenting culture, ruining yet another thing again.

The problem with 2nd hand is convenience. Maybe I can save a few bucks browsing eBay etc. but it’s not worth the time spent compared to ordering new. I hate doing it though.

Try nextdoor. I have found that people are often so eager to get rid of things that I need that I can get them for free.

I want to plug my company, GoodBuyGear, which is trying to solve this very problem

If you just happen to need a potty now, then browsing is a lot of work.

If you know "oh, we will need larger cloths and a potty and some toys soon and that bed will be to small in a bit" you can monitor relevant sites on the side and see when the opportunity comes up.

Not to mention the social circle with parents a bit older and a bit younger. "Hey, we don't need this anymore. Do you?" - "oh it's a bit early, but I take it already thanks!"

I was working with a guy from Israel and he asked why the cuffs of my jeans were turned up. I said because I bought them used and they were a little long. He was aghast that I would wear someone else's pants. I was like, "Dude, they're 1/3rd the price of new jeans and they're already worn in, and they are washed!"

I have another friend that would never buy a used car. He's convinced all used cars were totaled and are a scam, despite the fact it is all I've ever owned and they've been fine.

Something about being "used" really freaks some people out. It's this weird purity thing, I dunno.

This happens where I am at in the US. Our family and friends pass children's items and clothes around. The same clothing item may have left and returned to us multiple times.

I've lived in the US and now live in Germany, and cannot cosign to this comment. eBay Kleinanzeigen is full of scams, and the side effect of people hanging on to stuff until it breaks is that most of the stuff on the classifieds is half-broken crap that they just want to get rid of. So if people can afford to buy new, they do buy new.

The hidden lede is that Germans are not as rich as some would believe, with fairly low salaries, high home prices and high taxes, and a low level of wealth compared to GDP. Much of the German wealth is held by heirs of big dinosaur companies.

It’s not just for the sake of doing something, it’s to have profits growing constantly and wages been paid.

When we are talking about plastic ending up in the oceans we also must not forget about fishing gear and everything related. This is making almost 50% of all plastic in the ocean.

A handful of items are difficult to get second-hand commercially for either safety or hygiene reasons. But we both bought and sold tons of stuff through local consignment stores.

> it's also completely existentially debasing to the people involved.

Wow, the privilege wrapped up in that statement. Do you think it’s existentially fulfilling to clean public toilets? To drive a bus? To bottle alcohol?

Huh?

Yes, criticizing any profession is actually violence.

What's wrong with driving a bus?

Nothing, but it’s not existentially fulfilling.

The things you mentioned, clean toilets, bus rides, alcohol are actually things people want. Trying to push something that no one wants or needs is kind of debasing. I agree with OP that we seem to have created a consumer mentality, "shopping therapy", that is sad to be a part of — either as the consumer or the producer. Never mind what it does to the planet as well.

People do want cell phone cases. That’s why they sell. I want cell phone cases more often than I want gin.

I absolutely do not. But unlike driving a bus or cleaning a public toilet are at least socially useful, and those people should be cherished in society for the work they do and the service they provide. Being a "rep" for a pile of completely forgettable plastic pre-garbage is both debasing and utterly pointless.

So is selling alcohol.

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