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Comment by yummyfajitas | Hacker News Reader

On the contrary, they are doing this because their female attendees have been (in the past) intolerant of the culture of computer gaming. Trash talk is not bad behavior - it's an equally valid form of expression used primarily in certain subcultures (basketball among black men, gaming).

This sort of behavior, particularly when used in what should otherwise be a safe space for a minority group traditionally excluded from society (young male gamers), serves only to exclude and already disadvantaged group.

Incidentally, do you also believe black men playing basketball (who often use language similar to gamers) are also bad human beings?

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Please, someone, think of the young white males! :)

This is a tempest in a teapot for sure, but seriously, that's your concern here? The poor young male gamers?

This thread is quickly becoming /r/MensRights.

I also like how yummyfajitas states that young male gamers have traditionally been excluded by society. I'm a geek. I grew up as a socially maladjusted "gamer," but I'm not blaming society for my own lack of social skills. Cry me a river.

Your example, "black men playing basketball" are a homogeneous group by virtue of your definition. Their trash talk, again, by definition can't consist of one group disparaging another using slurs... I hope you like the slam-dunk of setting up a straw man and knocking it down.

Ok, let me rephrase. A group which is majority black men playing basketball will, under many circumstances, engage in racial ("cracker", "wetback" or "nigger" - whatever fits) and non-racial ("yo momma") smack talk.

(Note: not a hypothetical.)

Are they bad human beings for doing so?

I will take this statement seriously when you start arguing for a specifically exclusionary "black-only basketball league" on this basis.

I strongly object to your characterization of black men. I've played pick-up and organized basketball with people of all races for > 15 years and this has not been my experience.

Honestly, it sounds like you don't play basketball, and certainly not with said "black men". I recommend trying it - I think it would change your mind.

I am speaking from personal experience, nothing more. I've played pickup on many occasions with lower middle class black men.

Also interesting to note: in my experience, in a mixed race group (e.g., in grad school), the smack talk will be toned down. The lone black guy will tone it down to fit in, just as I amp it up when I'm the lone white guy.

Lastly, please note: I'm not trying to portray trash talk as anything other than a harmless cultural practice which outsiders can be intolerant of.

So, because you've been bullied, it's ok for everyone to be.

their female attendees have been... intolerant of the culture of computer gaming

Their female attendees have been harassed and disrespected. You need to understand that there is no such thing as an objective experience; context is the trump card every time. You don't feel threatened when someone trash talks or hazes you at a conference/tournament. Most women do feel threatened. It's up to us as a culture to decide which of those views is "reasonable". I prefer to consider both of them reasonable and search for a viable compromise.

"Basketball among black men"

So you're saying that white people playing basketball don't talk trash? Why would you even mention race and skin colour here?

And what is the culture of computer gaming of which you speak. The chances are that I've been gaming longer than you have, and while i recognise that there are certain juvenile elements who love shouting "cunt nigger i owned you" when playing, they do not represent gaming, and while they might be a feature of certain parts of gaming, they are, for the most part, denigrated and dismissed by their peers - not just women.

Are you a male gamer? It would be interesting to understand your clear bias here.

So you're saying that white people playing basketball don't talk trash?

The only time I've ever observed it is when non-blacks play in a primarily black group. I admit I've never played basketball at the Harvard Club (and only a few times in a group which wasn't majority black), however, so I could be wrong on this.

I specifically mentioned race because I want to disambiguate behavior and membership in a protected class.

Specifically, if cosgroveb is being intellectually honest, he will criticize a protected class just as harshly as he criticizes low status male gamers for the same behavior. I suspect he isn't, however, and he will merely say "it isn't exactly the same" and instead attempt to lower the status of young male gamers and people he disagrees with.

As for my biases, I am male and I have games installed on my computer (I doubt I've played in the past year, however). I've never engaged in smack talk during video games, however - only during basketball.

Are you seriously telling me that you've never seen a white man call another white man "a cunt" in a sporting situation? I've observed trash talking in white on white games. I've observed it on Indian on Indian games, in German vs Dutch games, in Senegalese vs Cote d'Ivoirian games.

Why say you've never played at the Harvard Club? I'm assuming that's some bastion of white male privilege. Is that the only place where white males play?

People who trash talk during gaming situations are often regarded as immature, juvenile dicks. If you're on a basketball court and you call me a cunt, I'm going to think you're a juvenile, immature, dick. If a black man calls me a cunt, I'm going to think he's a juvenile immature dick.

Why is this so hard to understand for you?

I'm trying to explain the concept of cultural context.

At my old martial arts school in NJ, you don't trash talk. You don't even need to call me a cunt to show disrespect, you simply need to fail to bow out. Should I assume you are a juvenile, immature dick if you fail to bow out after a soccer match? Of course not.

In much the same way, there are sporting events where witty banter about "yo momma" is considered acceptable behavior. No disrespect is intended, and none should be taken. It's just the culture of the game.

If you want to declare your particular set of conventions superior to all the others, be my guest.

Trash talking to hurt and psyche someone out in order to throw them off their game is a strategy employed amongst the aggressively competitive and those competing at a high level usually have counters. It is not a culture that you will find practised by all members of certain groups, it is a tactic used by some members of all groups. FWIW I have played basketball with a group of white persons where some of them do this, if I don't know them usually I get left out of such exchanges.

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It appears that this ban is because the gender jokes there are targeted offensive. Otherwise, as hardcore gamers I doubt the girls would be offended after having spent time and known that such treatment is distributed uniformly. It is the isolating and targeting that hurts, if everyone got such treatment and you didn't you would be a different kind of hurt. A left out pitied pariah kind. Such a ban is just as offensive on a metalevel, being disallowed for my own good is telling me I am not strong enough to handle this and need rescuing. I suppose there must have been prior complaints but I would not be surprised if it was a small number and that the majority have their own coping mechanisms e.g knowing that those who would speak so despicably are not worth the effort to adjust your emotional state over.

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