38% of remote workers work from bed
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I've had "real" offices. I've worked in open-plan offices. I've had a home office. I've worked from bed.
There are tons of good ways to do it.
Lately I swap between a kitchen table and a chair on my porch. I no longer use multiple screens, I've just gotten really fast at swapping windows on my 15" laptop; I've gotten good at figuring out how wide my terminal window breaks should be and where my browser dev tools should sit.
Surely there are more optimal ways of doing stuff. Odds are that there is a Taylorist approach that would pull more productivity out of me. But much like my typing speed (~50WPM) isn't really the limiting factor in my programming skill, screen real estate isn't a big factor in getting stuff done for me.
But the big thing for me is that, in the end, it's fine for me to switch stuff up on a monthly or quarterly or yearly basis.
I could never have done that when I was in an office. I couldn't take 20 min and play banjo or accordion and come back to my problem with a fresh eye. I couldn't put on my laundry and hang it up while I listen to other folks on the daily stand up. I couldn't start my lunch cooking in the instapot while waiting for a script to finish running.
It would take a hard, hard sell to get me back in an office, not matter how much real and legitimate enjoyment and utility other folks get in an office.
Contrasting to a 9-5 job, I would rather just order takeaways after getting back home from the office.
In the WFH situation it’s suddenly 20:00 and I’m starving and just look to snack or even go so far as to order food, but when I work away from home I have the train ride back to browse which supermarket I’ll shop at and message with a friend on how and what we’ll each be making.
One thing I do to separate work from home is to get changed. Wake up in underwear, lounge until work start alarm then get dressed/go for walk/start work - end of work alarm go for walk/get changed - helps me with the mindset of what is work and what is not.
I don’t always need to do this, just when it starts to affect me.
Or even have an external office on the property.
If you knew you can work remotely 100% of the time, that frees you up to consider cheaper locations where you can get a better house for the same rent.
You've had a year and a half to adjust. If you don't want to move, you could easily rent office space near your home. Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency for everyone who is happier and more productive at home.
You can set up timers e.g. pomodoro and do quick chores frequently.
[edit: care to explain the downvotes?]
And I find too that it doesn't even reduce down your working time too - an awful lot of thinking time in an office is when you get up from your desk and walk to the watercooler, bathroom, whatever. I do so much thinking and working out whilst doing these home chores.
However, I have my doubts about productivity in smaller teams and startups. Being in the same space physically I think speeds up a lot of things. In small teams and esp. at early stage startups your whole day is a meeting where things are discussed and resolved spontaneously. Sometimes it is important to have an environment where information is exchanged dynamically and in an unordered fashion, as opposed to structured meetings, schedules and planning that become necessary in fully remote teams.
Then there's the social part. At least don't forget to do regular meetups in real life if you can.
Honestly, I'm very divided over this. Is there a way to have the spontaneity and dynamism of working in small teams in real life, and have the comfort and freedom of working from home?
If we need a real meeting or need to talk with a specific subject, we just go to another conference room, in the same way we’d use a meeting room in the office.
The thing though is that we have a dedicated device for the visio. For now it’s a Cisco DX but it could work with an iPad for example.
The massive difference between what you describe and sitting in person is body noise. A cough in an office is normal while a cough in a video chat gets everyone’s attention.
I feel like it would be very draining but it sounds like you’re enjoying it?
I used to be self conscious about it, but I think the company culture plays a role. We had these devices and this behavior way before COVID because our teams were already remote (5 people in a city in France, 2 in another, 2 in Tunisia…), this is the company way of keeping remote people close to one another. The whole company works like this because all the teas are distributed. I went from not caring about it to loving it, and if I switched company I would do my best to advocate for such a system.
Who's going to write the fine-detail code if they whole day is a meeting? It may change from case to case, but for some small teams the biggest challenge is to produce something so good that it out-competes the product of teams significantly larger. A brilliant idea gets you 5% of the way, the rest is getting busy with very boring details and corner cases.
My small teams and startup experience: none of that boring work gets done as soon as there are two people together. Simply put, social interaction is way nicer than boring work. This is not just technical development work, but even commercial research. I know this is a thought crime, but I sometimes feel like it would be a good idea to lock the socialite sales person in a room with no human contact whatsoever until they finish that Excel spreadsheet.
Reminds me of the time I worked at an early stage startup. I used to take official vacation time, and disappear from company collaboration tools to get real work done.
Taking time off to work for the company that doesn't let you work for them during normal work hours.
The irony is so strong but I understand the sentiment and why you'd do it
The thinking and talking is still work
In a start-up ? You around midnight. Believe in the mission bro.
From my experience, in good teams people understand when it's time leave each other alone. I hate the word "sprint" which comes from the much hated "agile" culture, but it's what it is: there are these small sprints when everyone signals DND by taking on their headphones. Which also means only disturb me if it's very, very important or urgent.
But it is also important to be aware of what's going on in the company. Not just what you are doing but also why. Everyone can take part in decision making which happens during the day spontaneously. Or at least be aware of the process. From my observations: if done right, this kind of environments can be super productive.
I never got on well with Scrum, especially with the way it has become synonymous with “agile”. Really a shame that “agile” which focused on people has been swamped as a term by Scrum which is process process process.
I favor kanban processes - it locks in less at an organizational level and thus allows more freedom to make changes for the team. Though in my experience there is less change needed in the first place because the only processes specified are the ones that are locked in and everything else is whatever it takes to make it work.
Agile is rooted on focusing on people. Make a group of good people and empower them and they will create a process that works well. Also on the cases the process fail, they will change it. But if you go and decide the process, that's more than half the way towards a failure already.
Agile focusing on people is a good thing. People are number one, but agile has always acknowledged the roll of processes.
Ideally, even in a large organization, it should still be structured down into small teams that can self-manage. You'll end up with Conway's Law taking effect, but you'll also alleviate the O(n^2) communication problem. In my experience, it works a lot smoother than 50 person teams where everyone's tripping over each other all the time.
When I was working in a startup, we did a "hybrid wfh" thing: we knew when we were about to have something requiring our full attention and would work one (or multiple) days from home. We had Google chat (or whatever it was called at the time) for anything that could handle a delay in response and the phone for anything that needed a chat right away.
At the time, the office was in a kind of co-working space, so it was a particularly hellish combination of open-space and multiple companies, complete with people unaware of their phones' silent mode. The upside was that even for regular work, productivity skyrocketed when we were home, so the founder, who initially was against this, started warming up to the arrangement.
More broadly, I think that different jobs have different requirements. I hate it when people talk around me and find it harder to focus. I never got used to this even after multiple years. And while I love listening to music, even while working, I don't enjoy wearing headphones all day long. I'm wearing glasses, so bigger headphones start to hurt after a while and in-ears are pain to put back in after every interruption.
Also, headphones cut you off from the surrounding discussion (that's the point, right?) so the whole "you can overhear the spontaneous decisions during the day" kinda falls flat, doesn't it?
This is a good thing if the spontaneous decisions are always and only the ones that are important to you. This is a bad thing if there is any other decision. In a shared multiple companies space the only decision that matters to you is "where should we go for lunch" (they might not work with you, but you can still eat lunch with them). In a company only space it is better, but there are still a lot that don't matter to you. If it is a team only shared space most of the decisions matter to you.
Lowercase agile culture is not hated. What's hated is usually completely wrong implementation of that idea and cargo-cultism.
Even more so, the whole industry of capital-case Agile.
The chance that one of us was feeling motivated to put in the work to deal with that corner case is higher than the same chance for either of us individually. Though I guess it depends if the distracted person is more able to derail the other person, vs being pulled back on track.
You do it in the meeting, while others discuss things that aren't your concern. If it's something hard you really need to focus on, you tell the others to either shut up for a bit, or lend their eyeballs for a while.
Also, the boring stuff gets done just fine in a group everyone getting their last month's pay depends on it.
Been there, on both counts. The only thing I miss about it is how much you get done, compared to being a €€€ consultant tied to a spot with red tape.
• bringing all stakeholders together with exactly one goal (in a startup-as-meeting, that’s “finding product-market fit”),
• where everyone in the room has domain expertise and heavily-overlapping capabilities;
• and any non-shared knowledge relevant to solving the problem that each stakeholder brings in with them, is immediately pulled out and put on the table, until there is formed a complete shared understanding of the problem,
• and micro-tasks / “there’s always another thing” tasks are then being greedy-scheduled by whoever’s free and able jumping to take them on next;
• with everyone keeping track well-enough of what the solution-space for each task is looking like, that at any time the person working on a task can drop it to work on something else more urgent+suited to them, and someone else will be able to immediately pick up that task — not because the other person had the time to document everything and make onboarding to the solution-space easy for them, but rather because everyone was learning all they could about everything everyone else was doing in expectation that they might have to jump in.
In regular work, you do heads-down work and then you explicitly decide to “have a meeting”, which interrupts your heads-down work for a while. In a war room, you’re always “in” the continuous meeting, and people explicitly decide to break off to do heads-down work while the meeting continues around them. (Usually with one ear open to notice if they need to jump back in and contribute/adjust the course of the plans being made.)
For extremely-early-stage startups (i.e. founders and no-one else), this is what every day looks like. Rather than dividing up the problem along lines of domain-expertise (a sort of human Service-Oriented Architecture for problem-solving, with single-person “departments”), you instead essentially act together as one “multi-core person” to solve problems.
IMHO, if this isn’t how most hours of the day at your early-stage startup look, then you either don’t have the right founders, or you don’t have enough shipping pressure (i.e. “too much” runway.)
> Usually with one ear open to notice if they need to jump back in and contribute/adjust the course of the plans being made.
is precisely what I was trying to describe here in the comments. Thanks again.
It's worth remembering that this high communication method isn't really scalable too, and that larger teams trying to follow it will find themselves dedicating a larger % of their time to noise. It would take some intentional actions to move away from it as the team grows.
True, from what I've seen the threshold lies somewhere at 10-12 people, assuming a mixed team engineering + marketing + etc.
But while you are small you can take advantage, remove all formalities and be in-place as much as possible. You can move so much faster, having trivial respect and ethics in mind, as in don't talk loudly about sales just next to an engineer who seems to be working on something. And vice versa.
One argument that I think fails in the long run is that creativity drops. Maybe it does, in the short term, but if people are happier at home, and more companies will support it, new ways of being creative or even together will be found. I wouldn't worry so much about losing the "classic, old" way creativity worked before, there is so much to be gained and so much yet to be learned. Give it some time, embrace it, see where it takes us.
One example of growing creativity for me has been: One colleague in our team is from the US, he's the only one. Pre-Covid he'd be on a speaker in our meeting room, no cam on. Since Covid he has his cam on, same as everyone else. We engage much more in small talk, recently we got a tour of his house and garden via webcam. What a nice guy! We wrote some patents together now too. Even though we are 8 hours flying away from each other. The talent pool for teams just grows much bigger.
...and also makes a lot of people unable to focus.
I do not understand how people can get work done in an environment like this. I've had similar experiences and "the whole day is a meeting" only served me for unnecessary interruptions, useless workplace banter and unsatisfactory results.
Programming is not one of them. ;)
Putting engineers in a war room or open office is only going to irritate the ones who want to spend their time doing deep work. And those are usually the better ones.
We have a 2x2 grid. On the top we have 'in person' and 'remote'. Down the side we have 'synchronous' and 'asynchronous'. I've worked in companies trying all five (yes) of these combinations. This is my experience.
- in person, synchronous: everything happens in meetings. Business likes the certainty of meetings, engineering doesn't like the disruption. With the right accommodations, most people are content.
- in person, asynchronous: everyone's in the office, and no-one knows why. The CEO offers vague maritime platitudes.
- remote, synchronous: "can you go on mute" now causes a company-wide gag reflex. Everyone's happy because they can apply for new jobs without being noticed. (Seriously, the company I worked in that did this had absurd turnover, for this reason.)
- remote, asynchronous: engineers contribute to discussion when they have time. Hotshot managers want there ideas validated now, though. Despite this contention, most people are happy.
- hybrid: A cabal has formed in the office. Finally, it formalizes when a Jira account named 'Office' appears. When a remote worker creates an issue, the cabal convenes to decide a response. There is no room for negotiation. Gradually, the remote staff evaporate. Only the hive mind remains.
Many people who like remote work although also do not like something like that arrangement although.
I mean ... you could.
And maybe that's just a supposition that I was making.
People pay me to play music-- it's not that I'm bad at it. But there are a lot of reasons ranging from not annoying other folks to not looking like I care more about playing scales than fixing a problem which make me think I should not do that kind of thing.
I too stopped using multiple screens some time ago because it felt like being overwhelmed with information and experiencing fatigue, while not being more productive.
Being able to noodle on a guitar while stepping away from a problem is a super power for me. If you work from home, get an instrument you can distract yourself with. The music or drills can break you out of ruts, and if you do it half seriously, you can develop real skill.
The oh so serious kabuki show we all play out in offices, especially open plans, wastes a lot of mental energy on "professionalism" and decor. People get away with being good at that type of theater, instead of being competent problem solvers, or try to turn those things into leverage for internal politics and career maneuvering.
If people are doing knowledge work, then the privacy of their home gets rid of all the unnecessary play acting. Maybe the pandemic will demonstrate once and for all that an employee with a good work ethic can be lots more effective from home than at the office. And if we encourage music and creativity and development of other relaxation and focusing skills in service of optimizing mental acuity, that leads to a better world.
Except for all the hours you spend on video calls where people are looking directly into your home. If you use some type of background to blur your home, that becomes the same type of "kabuki show" you reference about offices.
==Maybe the pandemic will demonstrate once and for all that an employee with a good work ethic can be lots more effective from home than at the office. ==
Maybe you have a bias here? I know lots of people with "good work ethics" who feel less productive at home.
How's your spine? my neck can't handle laptops any more.
In my experience he's at least not completely wrong, but in the long term I still aim to try a standing desk to mix it up, sooner or later sitting in general feels wrong when I overdo it. And I just prefer a single large screen. Enough to fit two windows beside each other with enough space for any situation.
IMO, core strength has been the big change in how my spine feels.
Having the right setup is not only about making your brain more productive - it's about keeping your spine pain free. While my home office is set up for this purpose, only one company that I have worked with so far had this aspect in mind. In the past, I had to take days off because of terrible set ups and long work hours. Having a well positioned and large second monitor helps a lot.
You have much more control over this while designing your home office. Working from bed is not the way unless you're planning to marry a physiotherapist in the future.
One of my team decided that they needed a good chair for medical reasons and asked for it. They got a really nice chair.
I don't know if anyone complained, but it wasn't long before the whole team had really nice chairs. The cost was negligible compared to the morale boost, IMO. I don't think I ever looked at that chair without thinking, "Man, that's a good chair!"
When I got a new job that had crappy chairs, I bought myself a new chair right away without even asking. Whenever I upgraded, I'd give my old one to anyone on my team that wanted it. I don't know if they cared much, but it sure made me feel better.
The headline is misleading because I would have answered that I work from bed sometimes, but I also work from every chair or position around the house. I have a laptop and I move around.
Working from bed is when I am trying to finish something that's not particularly challenging while also kind of watching the baseball game on TV.
I do agree about going back to an office... Its not really something I anticipate doing.
My approach is that I think about how much commuting would cost me, and consider that a reasonable amount to invest in my working space at home. As a result, I have a very small, but very functional space that I feel good about sitting in for 8 hours a day. I'm comfortable, I'm calm, and when I need to think, I don't feel stressed by my environment.
Edit: to give some examples - I have very carefully chosen art for the walls that I can stare at and my mind can drift, when I need to solve problems. I had a desk custom made to give me the most amount of space because this is a very small room (~3m x ~2.5m) that regular desks can't make the best use of. I have great audio gear (mic, headphones and speakers), carefully tuned lighting, etc, etc. In isolation the thousands I've spent on this room seems kind-of ridiculous, but compared to the thousands more I haven't spent on commuting and compared to the satisfaction I get when sitting in here, I think it was absolutely worth it, and I am very grateful that I was privileged enough to be able to make all these choices.
Does Remote Work prevent burn out?
1. Your work is not your life.
2. Since it's not your life, don't get too invested in it.
3. Plan your free time ahead and fill it with stuff that makes you happy.
4. Eat good, sleep good, and Sport sport sport (from everything a good amount and not too much)
5. Don't take drugs on regular "recreational" basis (yes alcohol is especially included here)
6. If your away from work, don't think about it.
If you are feeling disconnected from the value of your work, being away from other people doesn't reconnect you.
If you are fire-fighting one emergency after another, not seeing other people in vivo doesn't get you downtime.
I have two areas of my yard where I can work, one is always shady, I have a dedicated office, but also work in the living room and kitchen table. I have a nice external monitor on my desk, but I don’t really need it for most writing or work tasks.
That said, as other commenters have mentioned, there is value (for me) to work in a team and to have others actually depend on me and my progress; I need a bit of external pressure. At the moment it's mainly self-pressure / self-motivation, which isn't the best.
I do think in the future I'll pursue jobs where I'm both independent but also replaceable, because at the moment I'm not replaceable so I don't feel like I can move on yet.
This is the right approach from an ergonomic standpoint - cycle through how you sit/stand while working and you’ll minimize a lot of joint issues. If some position is causing you issues, it’s easy to identify and effortless to switch. At minimum it isn’t healthy to sit for hours straight. It’s also easy to mix in a few workouts or use some sort of treadmill or stationary bike.
Years ago I went from 3 27” screens down to 1 12” MacBook and had no loss in productivity. I was primarily doing design and data analysis work. DPI and OS window management matters more unless you have vision issues.
Lately, I've been wondering if less screen real estate actually makes me a better programmer.
Being able to simultaneously have 6 files open across two large monitors with a lot of vertical real estate means that messy code doesn't hurt me as much. In fact, I'm pretty sure the only reason I do that is to facilitate dealing with messy code. I no longer have to build a stable mental model of it in my head, because it's reasonably convenient to just keep referring back to the original source code.
When I'm just on the laptop screen, though, and I can fit one file full width, or two if I've been good about keeping the line length below 90, I start having to keep things in my short term memory. Which means that, when it's not amenable to that, I'm relatively quick to get annoyed and refactor it for comprehensibility. I'd like to think that, with time, I'd eventually come to just write more comprehensible code in the first place.
A couple more data points here, obviously riddled with bias, come from my colleagues. Some have desktop computers with multiple 4K monitors, some have a laptop connected to a single external monitor, and some have that and also a habit of unplugging the computer and working on the front porch whenever the weather is nice. My impression is that the people in the first group tend to write the least comprehensible code.
Of course, the 4K monitor jocks also tend to work the fastest. But I think it's maybe a bit like when I used to work for building contractor. Nobody liked to be on the same crew as the person who worked the fastest.
So I was forced to just use my Macbook Air, and I was preparing for a massive productivity hit, and tbh- I think it may have actually helped a bit- I don't think we realize how much we get distracted by having email and slack or whatever open all the time, and just being able to focus on one task at a time visually was actually kind of a relief.
Long term, I am going to want monitors back and all, but I think there is a real benefit to keeping the things that are not 100% your attention at that moment entirely minimized and out of view.
I used to have two external monitors and it was always frustrating to dock/undock and re-arrange my windows. That was why I transitioned. But I've seen no reason or negative impact on my work to drive me to return to multiple screens.
HackerNews often talks about how task switching and multi-tasking negatively affect focus. I wonder if those same people think multiple monitors contribute to either of those. On my screen I only ever have one window; it feels more intentional. On three screens I had email and teams on one, a browser on another, and my IDE on the third. Surely that's more distracting, no?
Initial Google results seem to sing the praises of multiple monitors. Am I truly unproductive on my one screen or have others seen the same benefits? How can "productivity" even be quantified?
I'm back in a traditional office setting. My diversions are mostly the "surf around on the Internet" variety. That's not to say random Internet use didn't happen when I worked at home, but I found I enjoyed random non-computer diversions far more than sitting viewing websites. Now that I'm in an office those non-computer diversions aren't an option. I just end up wasting time on websites when I need a break.
I also really, really miss working from my couch with my 15" laptop on my lap. It was vastly more comfortable than any desk setup I've ever had and discouraged me from hoarding physical articles in drawers, corners of a desk, etc.
In the last year, as travel/f2f was essentially taken off the table, I've moved to laptop with 2 external monitors, and just recently to 'desktop' setup. I still have the laptop, and use it to work from home now and then, but I'm slowly getting used to more screen real estate. It's not even so much 2 monitors, just a much larger main one. 32" vs the 15" has been a big difference, mostly for the better.
But... I had years of comments from a lot of folks about "no idea how you can get anything done from just one laptop - that screen is so small, etc."
Yeah, there's a secret value in low level distractions: they prevent higher level distractions. When you go into a deep focus environment for that daily, chances are your mind will focus deeply on something entirely unrelated.
I have 3 full monitors, one for running 10 or so processes that I can glance at stdout, then the other two monitors for having many different editor files open, numerous data plots, and multiple reference guides open, etc.
My home office is 2 monitors. My work office is 3, however I only find myself using 2
I think stand-ups are useless.
Your work habits suggest the best "Taylorist" improvement might just be to let you roam. Seems to be working best.
> I could never have done that when I was in an office. I couldn't take 20 min and play banjo or accordion and come back to my problem with a fresh eye.
I've seen music/game rooms at good companies. If a company can't set aside some space for breaks, that's a red flag.
If you can make a setup like this work for you, I highly recommend it. Your body will thank you in the long run.
EDIT>> A few of you are asking about the model. I actually bought 2, one for myself and one for my partner, who also loves it.
This one is mine https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07V7F8QYK. I got it when it had a $100-off coupon, so the price wasn't as steep. No real complaints so far, except you can't store it upright. I just roll it out of the way when I want to sit.
The one for my partner is https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0895DRWVY. She likes it. It's a little smaller and can be stored upright and out of the way, which is nice. There have been complaints about the remote (and it only comes with 1), but the manufacturer claims to ship new remotes free of charge if yours breaks.
They're both a little quirky with a very simple LCD screen. Supposedly mine has an app integration for step counting, but I just use my phone in my pocket. They both get the job done.
If not, what kind of mic are you using? I think a headset will suffer from the heavy breathing
Also - post your standing desk or its dimensions please
Do you wear shoes while walking? Do you typically wear shoes indoors then?
I'll usually do 10k steps in the morning, take a break and sit and eat lunch and rest for a bit, then finish another 10k steps.
The treadmill has rear wheels, and I roll it back out of the way of my desk, then roll my chair back to my desk, when I want to sit.
I don't wear shoes while walking or indoors. If I start getting foot problems, I might get a pair of indoor shoes.
People are substituting artificial things for the natural things that made us happy in earlier times. Walking on a treadmill vs walking outside in the sun and shade amidst plants, trees, and other living things. Eating things for nutrition vs eating fruits and vegetables for enjoyment.
You're not the first person to mention gerbils on wheels to me. I think it's mostly a reaction to seeing something unconventional, despite its health benefits. If you feel like you're not living your ideal life in this industry (assuming you are also in tech), that's fine, but don't project that onto me please. I enjoy what I do and how I live.
No longer in tech.
A bit much? I'm not sure where you get soylent from.
Nobody is substituting here, I didn't get that from the OP at all.
Another commenter mentioned that working from home allows for asynchronous tasks, the OP merely stated that means he can work and work-out on a treadmill. He is neither being compensated for or replacing going out into nature.
Which is basically a myth at this point. For most of the last 5000 years most people have had a much lower quality of life than people do today. It's not like things were nice before we sat infront of computers all day.
But we didn’t have to sit in front of computers all day.
There's also still a lot of people who have troublesome lives, not to mention people living un-comfortable lives in front of a screen.
It's not really that much of an exaggeration. Significant percentages of women died in childbirth, young children died of diseases, and men died of violence. If you didn't, multiple people close to you did. Back-breaking manual labor for subsistence was the norm. Even the small minority who lived "comfortably" could randomly die from a tooth infection.
It can be exaggerated to be sure, but I think it's even easier to discount the stunning drop in absolute poverty over the last two centuries because we've simply forgotten how terrible the old "normal" was. I highly recommend books like Enlightenment Now or Factfulness that do a great, detailed, and evidence-based job of driving this point home.
But it _is_ an exaggeration. Child and maternal mortality rates was obviously higher back in the day, and social safety nets were mainly based on community and family rather than own savings or contributions like in modern Western society.
On the other hand, there are still somewhat un-contacted and isolated tribes on multiple continents, and I've never heard anyone describe their life as hellish. Most of those tribes are perfectly aware that there is an outside world, and one would think they'd join the rest of us if things were _that_ bad.
As it is now, it seems the situation is far worse for those who attempted to leave but failed to integrate into modern society.
That being said, average quality of life does seem to have increased a lot the last 100 years. There's no doubt about that.
This might be true, technically, but often HN uses this point to dismiss any criticism of modern society and it use of technology.
You frame threadmills and soylent (terrible name, though) as gerbils in a cage. That's one way to frame it. But I choose to frame those things as steps towards becoming something more than humans, with humanity taking its destiny in its own hands.
Maybe one day we will have conquered death and live as long as we want to, but until then a small-ish machine that improves my quality of life with me barely noticing is a good first step.
We might be the only animals that eat "for nutrition" instead of "for enjoyment", but we are also the only animals that read.
https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-prod...
That's some heck of an environmental impact.
Also, short walks are great times to think about work. Or, sometimes having a pad of paper to think away from a computer.
Like, this is the most normal thing that it works this way.
This naturalistic fallacy nonsense is so tiresome. “Oh wasn’t it great that we lived in nature and got eaten by bears”. No. It sucked.
We often joked that, when we all inevitably got treadmill desks, we'd have to get him a climbing-wall desk. It'd be great! We could just stick a computer at the top of this thing, and maybe some espresso for motivation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjiepNna8GA
He agreed.
Sadly, we never did get treadmill desks.
I was helping IT support before the pandemic when I had free time (or waiting something to finish) And I liked all the walking around the office, between buildings, etc.
Now, I artifically simulate situation by leg-shaking :)
Whether it’s for you is quite personal: See if you can find somewhere to try it out for a few minutes, in particular try typing and using the mouse/trackpad while walking. My treadmill tops out at 4 mph (6.4 km/h), which is really too fast to do anything but walk. I can watch videos at 3mph, code routine easy stuff at ~2mph, code hard stuff at ~1mph, and to read hairy code I have to stop completely. I don’t walk all day, I also stand and sit.
Some things that will help you have a good experience:
• Get a purpose-built walking treadmill: They’re smaller and more importantly go much slower. • Get a very solid, stable desk and put it on a stable floor. Any little monitor shake will make things miserable. • The treadmill is not silent, so you’ll probably need to stop when speaking on video. It’s awesome to be in watch/listen-only meetings and put in a mile or two. • A nice option I’ll upgrade to someday is a stand-alone walking treadmill with a wireless control, plus a nice sit/stand desk.
While SWEs might need/want a good desk setup, many office jobs just don't need it. I'm not sure people are really improvising but rather find sitting with a laptop is how they normally work anyway.
And working in the bedroom can be misleading... it's often a private place you can put a proper desk.
I WFH and went from living alone to having 3 roommates who all WFH. I have my bed, desk, and theater setup all in the (master bedroom). It's actually better than a 1bdr apartment, it's quieter (no leafblowers!) and I don't have dirty dishes right behind me.
I have a small desk but a 4K 32" monitor and a vertical 1080p one. A microphone on an arm and NO webcam; I use screen sharing 90% of the time but I don't need to see peoples faces. (I really wish video calling didn't compress >1080p screens so much). If I need a webcam, I use my laptop.
Maybe the pandemic changed things but you could get decent chairs for $20 at goodwill.
I guess I'm just skeptical that a majority of people have difficulty working from their home... You know the place you live and pick your own furniture.
Now I am in Hong-Kong, and it's really hard to find a place that have enough place for a desk in a bedroom / place in the living room, without breaking your bank account. I heard that it's the same for Singapore.
Just get an Aeron and expense it.
Imagine a large pillow that's shaped vaguely like human back should be when resting, which you could put on your bed to support your entire back, neck and head, at a slight incline. Then, add a keyboard support that can be moved around, alongside with one for mouse (or just a trackpad), as well as a VESA wall mount for a few monitors above the bed, angled so that you can look up at the screens directly, without putting too much strain on your eyes.
Essentially, it'd be the bed version of this: https://altwork.com/
And, because it'd be just a few pillows and some aluminum pieces for the mounts, it shouldn't break the bank like the linked item either. Otherwise, even with reminders to get up and walk around every hour, it always feels like my back is in the wrong position, regardless whether i'm sitting at a table with a chair, laying in bed with some pillows underneath or anything else. Even though i do stretches and daily exercise, the lack of truly ergonomic ways to work without having to constantly monitor my own posture (which will realistically never happen) feels like a detriment, or at least will become one in 20 years, when back issues start manifesting.
So here's my question: why are people so obsessed with office chairs and why don't we have such pillows be more popular, or just don't put more thought into working from bed?
Here's a Google Translate link for anyone who isn't familiar with the German language: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https...
Sadly, it is no longer on the market but the community behind it expects a new model.
I have another theory: The reason we didn't adopt such ergonomic setups is because they look "weird". We are quite used to sitting in chairs and it's not quite far from sitting on a rock.
A customized ergonomic setup will pay itself in quite a short time.
Alternatively, such a setup would cost me almost 5 month's worth of net salaries (as a software developer in one of the countries that people outsource to) and that is before any additional shipping costs.
Such setups might make sense for people in the 1st world countries with decent salaries, but for me and may others who live in Eastern Europe or other countries that aren't as financially advanced, that is still a considerable sum of money.
As for your point in regards to looks - i somewhat agree, however i definitely wouldn't mind such a setup in a full remote working position.
Especially when eventually coupled with some high quality VR headset that would provide a passable resolution for programming (essentially at least an effective resolution of 1280x720 per virtual screen). It might be a while until that becomes feasible, if ever, though.
What country is that?
Rent in an average small flat is around 300 euros, though could also reach 400 euros or more with heating expenses ( https://m.ss.lv/lv/real-estate/flats/riga/all/fDgTeF4RAzp4FD... some of these adverts list daily prices though ).
Regardless, 7000 USD is around 5900 EUR, so 5900/300 = almost 20 months of rent covered. This also assumes no shipping costs, which might add a bit more.
> You're talking about 1/4th of their take home salary
Over a life span of 5 years, that's less than a 10% of take-home salary. Non-Ergonomic chairs have a high future cost for your health but I guess doing that math is not humans strongest feature.
I can sit in this position for hours on end without getting uncomfortable.
I've tried out every office chair including the Aeron, they don't compare in any way. If I was forced to work from a chair, I'd get a $100 adjustable deck chair.
I also found multiple monitors are very tiring on your head/eyes which need to be constantly moving between them which takes time and energy. Alt-tabbing is much quicker and as a bonus you're not gimped when forced to work from a single monitor/laptop while outside.
A deck chair seems like an interesting idea, however!
In regards to screens, I've found that 4 is still not enough for me - even some of them are stacked vertically with a DIY VESA mount and stand, so the movements end up being pretty limited and are more like the occasional gentle stretch.
Then again, I'm the kind of person who likes to have multiple categorized browser instances open, text editors, IDEs, source control tools and terminals to the point where managing all of the windows would be a hassle. Workspaces could help, maybe even tiling window managers, but I think everyone has their own preferred workflows.
I want a breakdown of remote work preference by dollar amount spent on office chair. I think this would be revealing.
If you want something like an Aeron, then ask your friend with a Costco membership to get you a $120 Metrex IV Mesh chair by Bayside Furnishings. It's 90% as good and it doesn't have the insane recline that the Aeron does. Only downside is, Herman Miller uses much sturdier plastic for their chairs, but that's more suited to shared office spaces with employees who don't take care of their chairs anyway.
There's a reason for it. An Aeron will last you your entire working life. As a 250lb man who likes to recline, I was going through cheap office chairs about every 3 months working from home, so I took the plunge and bought one. It very much feels like a piece of heavy duty commercial "equipment", not a cheap piece of furniture. I bought mine used; it's 20 years old and looks brand new. And the ergonomics, while controversial, I've found to be life changing.
I have a Lifeform with a custom seat made with a cut out for the perineum and coccyx to make sure all my weight sits on my glutes and thighs and keeps pressure off the spine. It's insanely adjustable, has a amazing lumbar support, and is very comfortable to sit in for long periods of time.
https://lifeformchairs.com/ultimate-2390-ergonomic-office-ch...
I bought a toned-down style version of the Secretlab Titan chair pretty early in the pandemic and it is way better than my Aeron at work. And the Aeron is way better than any other normal office chair.
[1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/10/gaming-chair-shootou...
I was always skeptical of gaming chairs long duration sitting solutions but maybe i'll head to a local store and give it a try.
But...the high back Secretlab Titan chair is so much better. The back and lumbar support is great. The armrests are ok, but for less than $20 you can buy generic memory foam covers that feel like velvet clouds and position your wrists just right to help with avoiding RSD. The neck pillow isn't used all the time, but when I need to literally lean back, it is there. The chair also lays almost flat if you need a nap.
For less than $500 it is a no-brainer. There is an active subreddit (r/secretlab) that is almost cult-like, which was kind of a red flag for me, but it actually seems to be legit superfans and not marketing. The chairs have a five year warranty - up from three but only if you post about it on social media, which is also kind of a red flag. But it is a quality chair and after almost two years of constant use, the arm rests are completely solid and it still feels brand new.
There's nothing wrong with the Aeron but on the rare occasions that I'm in the office these days, it just feels...inferior.
Edit: The arm rests are actually great - I just meant the padding. They obviously go up and down, but they also rotate in and out. So unlike most chairs, you can position them so they actually support your complete arms as you're typing - not parallel to the chair, but angled in so your elbows are at shoulder width but your forearms are supported closer to the keyboard.
I forget about a lot of these adjustments because once you dial them in, it just feels right.
As I understand it, the key is the good posture. My back pain was caused by weak lower back muscles. Maintaining good posture exercises those, where comfy chairs only relieve the immediate discomfort at the cost of long-term health.
Style, material preferences, and budget will guide the best pick. You can't really go wrong so long as your choice is an adjustable chair.
Can I buy a comma, or buy you some? ;-)
They're wicked expensive brand new, but I found mine for $200 off Craigslist. Have had it for 3-4 years and it's one of the best purchases I've ever made.
I've had a BodyBilt from even before the DotBomb so I never understood the fuss about Aerons.
I wouldn't think twice of spending full price ($1500?) for one now. But I doubt it will ever need replacing... it was built in 1998(!!), like a tank. Some time later I bought a new gas strut for $50 (the old designs wobble) and some Atomdoc castors so it would glide over the hardwood floor.
Adjusted it once when I first got it. Vastly reduced my back issues - though a chair is just one part of back care.
I'm OK either way, my cat is sleeping on the Ikea chair, she won't touch the Aeron, so I get the leftovers.
Haworth are renowned for ergonomic quality, but aren't a stylish tech brand. For that reason you can usually find great deals, especially second hand.
It works really well for me. It's the single best piece of equipment I have in my office.
Good setup costs about $200USD, you will be feeling enlightened in no time.
[0] Well, no idea what a zafu or zabuton are. My setup cost $0.
Especially for the first half of my day while drinking coffee etc.
So well made.
Recent survey asked "Are you missing equipment that is only available at the office?" No, it's the other way around thanks.
[1] https://relaxtheback.com/products/hale-aircomfort-recliner
I've found the most important thing is setting the heights of my screen and keyboard properly, that seems to be the main determinant of discomfort.
It’s easily worth every penny.
The same logic for busing a bed should apply to home office ergonomics. You’re going to spend eight hours per day with both. Invest!
Yep, what you sit on makes a huge difference.
I now work from home and try to get out some mornings for a walk around the neighborhood but more often than not, I go straight from bed to a chair. My body gradually loosens up during the day but mostly in a seated position.
This does bring up a valid point that not everyone can afford these things, but employers should provide them IMO.
but now that I’m back I can see how having the dedicated office is a luxury
After all, you didn't specify who should be the target of that inequity.
Telling employees to work from home for a year but be prepared to come back to the office at any time is the worst of both worlds - they have to pay high housing prices to live within easy commute distance of the office, but meanwhile they have to work from home and may live in a very small home.
Some employees may prefer to live in or near a city for other reasons, but others would be happy to move farther away.
* Private office space * Co-working space * Dedicated home office * Bedroom corner office * Bed * Sofa * Kitchen * Bathroom * Garage * Solarium * Hotel * Coffee Shop * Car * Lakeside * Beach * Park bench / picnic table * Jury Duty waiting room * Airplane * Subway * Streetcar * Train * Ferry * Top of a mountain in the wilderness
And I'm probably forgetting a handful of other locales!
_This is the whole point of remote work._ The tasks you perform and the location in which you accomplish those tasks are wholly unbundled, and I'll be damned if I let anyone talk down to me to tell me which ways are better or worse for me at any given time. That's my decision and mine alone.
I spent about 100 euros on a kneeling chair, that had enough adjustment settings for my liking. I have been increasing my time on it steadily for the past few months, to the point that I now confortably work the whole day from it.
It is a complete mind shift, I actively have to sustain my posture (and actively shift it), I don't slouch and I don't snooze off. It propels you into 'active mode'.
Whenever I am eventually physically tired it prompts me to take a break by taking a walk or eating a snack. I have been absolutely back pain free for the last 8 months and overall I feel that my posture is improved.
I bought kneeling chair and sitting ball, but prefered ball, but I don't know whether it helps me at all
If you have pressure on your knees with these modern kneeling chairs it is possibly not correctly fitted.
When I sit on mine my body weight is distributed between my butt, thighs and shins equally, I am not pressing down on my knees in any measurable way. What I do feel is that my spine assumes a completely neutral position, like the feeling of balancing a weight on top of a long pole.
For full disclaimer I have no idea what (if any) will be the long term consequences of this on my knees. But to be brutally honest I would much rather have a full knee replacement in my old age than a spinal surgery/disk replacement.
I love the water. Last time I worked from home (a couple of years ago), I built a custom desk/rack that suspended over our big bath to hold my laptop and mouse. I coded for hours in the bath. I had to be careful on the Skype calls though.
Also, similar question if the water is warm/hot and there's a lot of steam.
Changing my scenery helps me stay engaged. But I feel for others who do not operate that way and cannot afford a setup that accommodates how their brain works. That would be very frustrating.
Because they're stuck in the expensive city where their employer offices. If WFH means location independence and mobility, these employees will eventually find the space they need and can afford. At the moment, they're stuck in limbo.
Choosing to live in a city for reasons other than officing there is a choice. Given the choice and the preference for city life, would they choose a lower cost city where they could afford more space?
I don't think most people pick their residence based on their work location. My company's office is in the downtown of a major metro, and yet the majority of my coworkers are located far from the city core, often 30+ minutes commute by car -- and two colleagues who commute 90 minutes each way on the extreme end.
There are much stronger factors influencing people's choice of residency, such as familiarity, proximity to friends and family, recreational opportunities, nightlife, etc.
Which, to my mind, answers your question:
> Given the choice and the preference for city life, would they choose a lower cost city where they could afford more space?
I would venture to guess that for the vast majority of people, the answer is no. Few people are willing to uproot their life for a bit more space.
FWIW that 'study' was carried out by craftjack
https://craftjack.com/toolbox/remote-work-from-home-statisti...
And who knows how biased/correct it is.
After a year and a half I’ve run out of rooms that aren’t already spoiled for productivity. This used to happen in the office but I’d simply migrate desks or work from the kitchen for a few weeks.
If I was single wfh would be a godsend to simply travel where I wanted to travel and work where I wanted to work. But my house has a 10 month old a nanny and a working spouse inside of 1500 sq ft.
I mean, I like working from home, I like the extra time in the morning for sports, and in the evening to cook. But I also experience disadvantages from it... I really like being amongst others, which isn't the same via Slack.
Also, I dislike having my house as both my chill place and my work place. I feel it doesn't really work. I already have a different room to work in, but I still feel 'locked up' at my house somehow.
And i thought how is that possible, just use some extra room in your house.
Then I remembered having a house and an extra room might be an easy thing to attain as a software developer, but that is only true because I don’t live in the Bay Area or Seattle.
Yet in those areas you might have more fun on weekends.
Just to see, I looked at prices for a round trip ticket from the pacific northwest to the bay, and how much a 3 night stay in a hotel would cost. I was able to find a non stop flight and a cheap hotel for $200 (which seems crazy to me).
So if I could find those deals every other week I could spend bout $1000 (food and Uber included) a month and get to spend six days a month in the Bay Area.
My mortgage is like $1900 a month for 4 bed 2 bath 2300 sq ft on an acre and a 15 minute ride to the airport.
I feel like if I did that and spent $2900 a month combined for my trips and mortgage id have both a good home office and would still get to work once every two weeks on a Friday in the office and enjoy awesome SF food plenty frequently enough while probably paying less then what most people in SF pay just for rent.
Anyone consider this? (I have a wife and kids so biweekly trips would be a “not gonna happen” for me)
> And i thought how is that possible, just use some extra room in your house.
You made my day ... LOL ... yes, we all have a house with an extra room. That itself is not a luxury at all </irony>
Having said that - I just work in the sleeping room and that works just fine as well.
unless your wife called it first.
I have been getting jobs where I am the only programmer for years, and one person is funding the project out of their pocket. Which means my income is limited, but also is low-stress and affords me a lot of freedom in terms of things like technical decisions.
One issue is that the sponsor usually realizes within a few weeks that I don't really need new feature ideas every few days to keep busy. So they tend to be busy with their own jobs or life and migrate towards checking in once or twice a week.
Which is usually fine, but I do find myself wishing sometimes that they would just glance at the Discord every two days. When they get busy, that can sometimes coincide with times that I have done a deployment for them to check out or have a lot to discuss. Then I am sending them an email asking them to look at the Discord.
However, the meat of the article is more interesting and it asks questions which, sadly, it doesn't even attempt to answer. At the remote company that I work for, as well as allowing for expensing of an office setup, they will also contribute a reasonable sum (enough for most, unless you live in San Francisco, for example) to work from a shared office space, resolving the "what if you don't have room" in one go.
Of course, this isn't 100% perfect as there will be those who don't want a shared office space but equally don't have the room in their own home - I'm not sure what the answer is here.
This is inspiring. Why not take a phone call from the couch or the yoga mat or from a walk?
Why not check my email lying down?
I got a 27” monitor in front of my couch so I don’t have to look down at my laptop and love the setup.
I am more comfortable, more rested, more positive and enjoy work more.
How do you guys do it?
Whether it's remote workers themselves or people like my parents, people seem impressed with the idea that they can work in their PJs/underwear. I can't work that way, for some reason. I need to be wearing the same clothes I'd be wearing at the office. Although I don't do this most of the time, even wearing my shoes in my office helps me feel and act more professional.
Working from bed would be even worse. I've done it on occasion, but I always end up hating it. To each their own, though.
I mean, I can't go to the opera _right now_, but soon enough I can.
Some of us actually enjoy it, though.
There are very good schools outside of cities, as well as good hospitals. There are also plenty of beautiful towns with tons of shops and whatnot within walking distance, or a short bike ride. And they are a lot cheaper to live in than a city.
Most importantly, of course, is that it increases my availability to my cats. They are quite efficient at expressing their needs, and I have to be ready to drop everything, in order to attend to said needs.
I have a nice chair (a Herman-Miller Embody -overrated). I never sit in it. I stand at my desk whenever I work.
I have a desk that can go up or down, and have it set up, so that I can lower it, quite easily. I never do. It stays at one level (42.5").
I have a monster LG[0] that stretches across the entire desk. It is exactly as wide as the desk. I have another 4K monitor, above it (wall-mounted), for the AppleTV, or if I am giving a Zoom class (screen share).
I have a laptop (a 2019 15-inch MBP), but it stays plugged in. I insist on a laptop, so I can take it on the road, if necessary, but the LG has spoiled me rotten. Using the laptop screen is painful. My next laptop will be the smaller pro version M2 that comes out, later this year.
When I work, I generally "dress for work" (button-down shirt and jeans), but a lot more casually than I did, for over 30 years in the office. I feel as if it is important to have that silly little bit of self-discipline. On weekends, I allow myself shorts, and, occasionally, a T-shirt.
My hours are whatever I want, whenever I want. I tend to get started early (I wake up at 5AM), and often code, right up to bed time. I sometimes stay up, in bed, testing my work on my iPad and/or iPhone.
I take breaks whenever I want, and they can be long breaks, but I don't let myself have more than about 3-4 during a day.
I tend to work 7 days a week; sometimes, I allow myself a "half day" (maybe 6 hours). My GH Activity Graph is solid green.
I personally feel as if my productivity knocks anything I ever did in the office, into a cocked hat.
I also don't make a dime at it.
I've never been happier.
[0] https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-49WL95C-W-ultrawide-monito...
I think that our industry (maybe true for all industries) has a very skewed idea of what constitutes "happy."
It was not a voluntary retirement. I love working, and have skills that could earn companies millions of dollars.
It's just that the industry made it quite clear, very quickly, that I am not welcome (you see, I'm -how shall I put this- "chronologically-challenged." I'm older than 35).
So I found a few folks that can't afford nice things, and I'm working with them.
Feel free to check out my work. I manage to stay busy.
I wonder if most of the people are working from bed not just being lazy, tired or exhausted, but also because they have no other option.
I also often work from my den. “Often” isn't unique per person.
home offices aren't a luxury, traditional offices are harmful
An office in that situation ends up being important!
This is just asking for back problems.
I like to call this mode: "Duvet-Desking".
I do worry about long term health consequences though.
I feel a subtle, but strong, push back to the office by most employers, and get I get it some situations. Jamie Diamond is right about certain jobs in finance, but most of us are not offered those apprentiship type white collar jobs.
You proved you can work from home, why make things more complicated? Oh yea, to the people whom have zero social life other than work friends, there are still bars. Yes that last sentence is a bit rough.
I'm waiting for the "Save the planet" by working from home argument. The amount of Carbon whatever saved by people not commuting must be great?
I feel like employers are passively aggressive over this whole return to a 2 hour commute, office bull crap, and and all the other bs we do out of convention.
Oh yea, so lets finally bury the tie for good.
(A bit of a rant--yes. I just feel like they are really worried about work from home common sense movement. On another note, but strongly related to Covid, and zero pre government planning, I've also noticed how seemingly liberal cities, like Sausalito CA, are doing everything in the "Move along you homeless person, we don't want you here, but we will Act sympathize during meetings time handbook".)
Often when I sleep on something soft and significantly deformable like a mattress my neck and/or back are messed up the next day. Never happens on the floor.
I have a comfortable bed but never work from it for that exact reason - I'd be too relaxed and just want to sleep again.