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Comment by markus_zhang | Hacker News Reader

IMO that's one of the best ways a single programmer can spend his career. No weird requirements, no deadlines, no nothing, nada. Just one's passion and a product. Whether it is successful is irrelevant.

Kudos Mr. Adams for making the achievement and moves gaming history.

Going back to the interview, I found this line (and the logic attached) interesting:

>Making the item system polymorphic was ultimately a mistake, but that was a big one.

>When you declare a class that’s a kind of item, it locks you into that structure much more tightly than if you just have member elements.

I guess when the game becomes moderately complex then ECS or something similar suddenly makes a lot sense.

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I have a passion for programming but I need something to drive me. I'm useless when I try and make stuff on my own. But if I've got someone telling me "I need a system that does X", I just get highly motivated in delivering it. Like I need requirements.

Damn you sound exactly like me...when I work for my own projects they usually die off quickly once I figure out how to do it (without actually implementing it but I'm pretty sure it can be implemented in this or that way).

But if it comes from a friend, or a colleague then I'm super focused on it until it's done.

It's almost as if I do projects to show off to other people or I like to serve other people.

Yeah, showing off or feeling helpful. That explains it almost perfectly.

For substitute or for and.

Part of the issue is that it is difficult to come up with problems worth solving.

I think Joel and Fogcreek is a great example. He started out with the premis that you don't need an idea for a successful software company, you just need to find great devs and create the best working conditions and then success would come. This was a novel idea at the time since Apple was the only FAANG that even existed and this was their "beleaguered" period. As should come as no surprise to anybody, they ended up creating...bug tracking tools and a kanban board, albeit quite good ones.

Another thing that helps, since the problem is not your own but somebody elses, you don't get bogged down trying to figure out the best way to solve it for yourself, you just solve it for somebody else without all the emotional attachment to the problem. This lets you instead be emotionally attached to the process.

Point being, I think you're selling yourself short.

> you just solve it for somebody else without all the emotional attachment to the problem

This rings very true to me

Is having deep knowledge of the problem domain you're solving a blessing or a curse? Personal attachment to the problem domain?

Neither. It's a sign of time spent navigating an information gradient. Nothing more, nothing less. Encyclopedic knowledge of obscure topics isn't good or bad, just a data point as to what is capable of holding your interest.

I feel this.

Yes if you do it for yourself you rarely thank yourself for doing it. In a way that would be absurd, because giving thanks to someone means you are giving something to someone. But you can't really give anything to yourself because whatever you give you already have.

So it is quite natural that we prefer to do things for others. It makes you feel great when others thank you for it.

Yeah, I'm the same. I got into programming because I like solving people's problems. The hardest projects for me are the ones where I'm stuck in a cave for months working on a greenfield project that no one is using yet.

Same here. I'm motivated by being on a team that I don't want to let down, and getting a pat on the back when I deliver something great.

I think it's because the early stages of a new project, where you're doing a ton of googling and head-scratching, are kind of painful for me. I need that team or client or business owner counting on me in order to push through that part.

Then I can roll on my own when I get to the fun stuff (for me) - creating features with well-understood tools, and refining and organizing code.

I feel similarly, but I think working on a product that is used like this game is might be enough for folks like us. There are probably lots of features requests and bugs to focus motivation and the human usage driving emotional meaning of the work.

> No weird requirements, no deadlines, no nothing, nada

Well.. until you accidentally create a broken release, that is. That's _real_ sweat.

It can happen in the jobs with weird requirements and deadlines though.

I do think there is a huge hazard of working for oneself that is not getting paid and may literally starve. The guy who made HolyC comes in mind but he also has mental issues.

I was with you until:

> Whether it is successful is irrelevant.

At some point something needs to be successful or you can't keep working on it, right?

As long as you feel good I think it's OK. Most passion projects don't really generate a lot of revenue.

Oh Markus where were you like 5 years ago?!? :)

Me? I don't really have any completed passion project :/ so sad I wish I could at least finish one of them.

I meant to tell me that before I started :)) I’m just completing mine, but it’s taken a while. Not one of those people who can do things in a weekend…

Yea, but you specifically mentioned this as a career. You'd want _some_level of success if your passion project is your career.

me bad, I'll edit the post.

That's why programming is king. Software engineering on the other hand...

Everything about it is wonderful (I really mean that) except the fact that he's sponging off his mother to do it. I can't help but feel that it's a drop of vinegar that spoils the whole cup of milk

I think it's OK as long as they feel it's OK. We can say that his mother "sponsors" the project.

Edit: I was wrong about how much he is relying on his family - didn't realize how much Patreon support the project now has compared to when I last looked. My bad, should have checked. I still agree with the below in the abstract but I retract my criticism in this case

I can get with that take when it comes to Patreon but it's harder to demonstrate ok-ness-with-it with family. Let's say she's really not all that jazzed about it, actually. What is she gonna do, throw her son out on the street? A lot of parents don't have it in them to do that even if they think they would be justified and it would be the best thing for their child. An adult shouldn't put their parents in that position. He should be making sure his mom is provided for, not the other way around

Maybe his mother enjoys paying her son to create one of humanity's great works of art.

He is? He's making almost 9k a month, that's pretty good if you ask me. https://www.patreon.com/bay12games

I stand very much corrected, I didn't realize the project had gathered so much support steam compared to 5-10 years ago. Happy to see it

IIRC they added paid options after a family health scare caused them to realize that they needed a way to pay for better health insurance.

If you look at the monthly reports from a decade ago you see they were given donations ranging from 2000 to 6000 dollars a month even then.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97092.0

That's for two people (him and his brother, who's also working on the game, but in a non-coding capacity).

Why would this spoil the milk? Why is it called "sponging"? The middle class safety net (something I grew up without) is one of the greatest sources of freedom and investment generally available. Multi generational homes and properties are historically pretty normal and a net family positive for holding onto wealth.

For example: https://www.middleclasspaas.com/

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