How many American children have cut contact with their parents? | Hacker News Reader

How many American children have cut contact with their parents?

economist.com

44 pointsksec57 comments

I still talk with my parents from time to time. My brother does the same - but less. For me, it's a sense of, They didn't mean to be the way they were. They just were severely undeveloped people, who were reactionary and fearful. I also recognize how hard being a parent is - especially when you're in a marriage that brings out the worst in each other.

I know that cutting them off completely would be very painful for them, so, I put up with some BS from time to time just shield them from that pain. I'm in a good place, so they don't disturb my peace too much, but I have to be mindful about it.

As a parent myself, I think most parents go into it with the best intentions but do not realize how hard it is. Of the parents I know, a handful seem to be naturally good at it. The rest of us muddle through the best we can.

I did not keep in closer contact with my parents after I became a father but I did come to appreciate how well they raised me.

There are lots of “severely undeveloped“ people in the world.

Some of them will be related to us.

I consider learning how to deal with that to be growing as a person.

For example, it’s ok that people believe things that make no sense.

It’s not my job to change people’s minds. It’s tough to get past the fact that people believe things that the facts contradict but I feel much better simply letting comments pass or saying “well, I really don’t see how that could be but if that works for you…”

> They just were severely undeveloped people, who were reactionary and fearful.

This is an accurate way to describe my parents, too. I stopped talking to my dad after my mom died for many reasons including the above. Although I recognize they did their best, I just stopped answering phone calls one day. I didn't think about it; it just came from immense emotional pressure.

In retrospect, it was the right decision for my circumstance. I do appreciate your approach to deliberately keeping your parents at arm's length without cutting them off, though.

Yeah, that's an especially tough situation, and I don't think there are general right or wrong answers. So much depends on all the confounding factors. I'm glad you did what was right for you.

“But they were fucked up in their turn By fools in old-style hats and coats, Who half the time were soppy-stern And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can, And don’t have any kids yourself.”

At various points in life I had to cutoff my parents due to being unable to carry forward with the relationship as it stood.

It wasn't until I became a parent that I understood the emotional toll that must have placed on my parents.

I've kept up the calls with my parents, but even this last visit -- the post-COVID visit where I brought my son to see them -- they just don't relate to anyone else on their terms. They only tell their stories again and again, and they take no input from anyone in the course of a few hours' visit.

It's really hard to take. There's almost no "there" there, and spending time with them isn't a fruitful endeavor, and even from a charitable "put in the time" perspective, they just kick into stories of regrets and mistakes and losses (real estate losses) and that doesn't seem to do them any good either.

My parents are immigrants, so I gave them decades of allowances for that, but.. man.. unsatisfying and painful the whole thing is.

I endeavor with all of my awareness not to be that to my son, ever.

>I endeavor with all of my awareness not to be that to my son, ever.

I relate to your entire post very well, but this particular point is one of the reasons I still keep in touch with my dad. I had to overcome some issues that - I believe he caused - and growing up was often painful because of him. But, he was there. So many times, I would say, That's clearly the wrong way to do that. I'll never do that. He didn't have that. It would have been really nice if he smoked a blunt and chilled the hell out, but I think I'm a lot better off than he was - having no example to learn from.

I can't imagine not talking to my parents. My dad is definitely wiser than I am so I always go to him for advice. I also consider both of them very good friends. Then there's the whole culture thing. US culture is extremely diverse and it's nice to visit your hometown and return to what you experienced growing up.

From the years 2012-2019 I hardly talked to my parents or siblings at all. I would fly back home to visit one of the two sides of my family during the holiday season, but that was it.

Looking back at those years, I (unconsciously) fit neatly into the mold suggested by this article (an emphasis on personal happiness, rejecting relatives that hold clashing beliefs, resentment from divorce, etc).

Ironically due to COVID lockdown in the last 18 months I found both myself and my wife rekindling relationships virtually (video games, discord/zoom calls, random BS texting, snapchat) with uncles, cousins, siblings, and parents that we hadn't really talked to in years. It's honestly been wonderful.

If you feel the article speaks to you, I encourage you to give estranged relatives a shot, or at least think about it. It's easiest to maintain momentum not talking to someone at all, but you might be missing out.

One thing that worked for me to break the ice was to start a group SMS chat with parents and siblings and just share random goings-on, pictures, etc.

The articles title and topic is estrangement between parents and their adult children, but the only statistic they cite is about estrangement between a person and at least one family member. I didn’t find a link to the paper either, so it’s hard to get any sense of what the situation actually is

On top of that they admit they have no data spanning a significant amount of time to conclude any trend. "Nevertheless, many socio- and psychologists think it is getting more common". Click bait.

For most of human history if an adult child didn't see eye-to-eye with his parents, all he had to do was move ten miles in any direction and they never saw each other again. Parents didn't expect to maintain contact with adult children who moved on, at least not until the invention of the telephone and jet airplane.

For most of human history, by the time you were an adult one or more of your parents were likely dead anyway.

It was certainly very common before the 20th century, particularly one's mother given childbirth in those times. But I think you may be wrong about most.

While the simple life expectancy was so awfully low, much of that was infant mortality. If you look just at life expectancy of those who had already reached adolescence, it was not quite so dire. In particularly prosperous eras and places with relatively low disease, you could at the age of 15 expect to quite likely live to 50. Now, hoping to see 70 was rather optimistic, but you wouldn't be the oldest person in your village probably. And for Britain in the mid 18th century, making it to 70 nearly has odds in your favour. Though I guess that's coming to early modern times.

Letters seem to have been universal in my family going back. There's a few cases like oh and then he moved out at 17 to the city 40 mi away, and one permanent cross-continental relocation by motorbike at 19 in the 1960s. Plenty of nearly estranged. But no one actually fully severed the connection, as far as I know.

I think a key difference is the level of access. Sending a letter once a month, seems like a reasonable connection to have with someone who lives many miles away.

However in today's hyper connected world, you have Facebook, Instagram, E-Mail, Phone Calls, etc. People who you might enjoy some connection with, are able to connect with you a whole lot more.

I think your families did not come from a coastline, no?

The great-great-whatever-great-parents of mine who were born in ports >1000km from each other weren't considered unusual, and certainly expected to stay in touch with both families. There was trade and boat traffic all the time.

They expected their kids to care about them in the old age. If we are talking about historical generics, people did not moved all that much nor was it easy. Your family was your social service support and you was expected to provide support to family.

Plus, "for most history" means nothing, really. Usually what follows is ahistorical and fantasy. The way family or society functioned varied a lot through times and places.

Not true at all. Among all primates and even in elephants, one of the reason for "better" evolution is that even grandparents were involved in raising the kids.

Throughout history and even before that when we were primates, children maintained relationship with their families all their life. And relationship even with extended families including nephews/niece, grandparents, distant cousins etc

But human tribes also split and went separate ways. Prior to the telephone moving continents, countries, or towns over effectively meant an end to familial contact.

There is a lot more ambiguity in whether a person chose to no longer be in contact with their parents by moving to where contact was impossible - and the case where phone calls go unanswered.

I'm about to cutoff my father for attacking me for not supporting his political views, which are woefully curated by Rupert Murdoch. Thanks for nothing Rupert.

Clearly I don't know details here. But this sounds aligned with the article. This is a sad state of affairs that you can't find anything besides politics to discuss and for both of you to be so binary/arrogant in your thinking that you're either completely right or completely wrong.

All you have to know is that people on the right are very angry at perceived liberals and in attack mode driven by revenge, grievance and resentment fostered by media owned by Murdoch. There's no room for discussion, only attack, and I won't be abused.

I grew up in an emotionally and physically abusive household; left in 2006 and haven't had contact since.

Not sure what's up with down votes here. The sad reality is that this is a common reason for estrangement in the US both for parent-child as well as spousal relationships.

I’m estranged from my dad. I’m not sure the argument of individualism of the child is at fault, so much as the individualism of the parent.

My dad barely graduated high school and made a very nice living for himself. If anything is wrong with my life/anything goes poorly/I don’t have enough money for a house/vacation, it is because I am morally subpar and do not have a good enough relationship with Jesus.

I have a lot of older brother’s, a few who were in their 20’s in the crash of 2008 and I was in high school watching their lives go to shit. Attempting to get my dad to help me with anything (supporting me in programs/sports I wanted to take on in high school, getting money to apply to additional colleges) was met with derision.

His thought process was that education is superfluous, you need to work hard and show-up and that’s it. While both are things you need to do, it is not enough.

Myself and another sibling do not have a relationship with him, the other few do have a relationship but it is severely strained.

His rugged opinions of America and how to make it have alienated everyone around him. Even telling him these things 15+ years ago was not enough to get him to look at the world a different way.

I very much think the way older and younger generations view and experience the world are the main contributors to this massive schism.

I have definitely seen kids cut off toxic parents way way more than I have the reverse.

That makes a lot of sense to me. On average, the specific kind of love and care a parent provides to their child is a one way street, meant to be paid forward.

Of course care of an elderly parent can reverse this relationship, but that's less universal than the standard parent/child relationship.

I think this is a generational fault line that's pretty common even in good relationships. Older generations could get by making way less pragmatic choices. Many of the older generation graduated into an economy where the default state was almost full employment. Long term unemployment, or being stuck in a dead-end job, was for losers. So even nice parents often look at their kids and think their kids are losers or doing something wrong because everybody they grew up with who had the kind of problems their kids have were really dysfunctional people.

If you're not from the kind of family where kids goes to college is going to college and trying to get an office job the pragmatic choice? Unless you have some very good reason to think you'll be the exception odds are you'll just wind up with a few wasted years and a partial degree.

Busting your ass as a plumber with the goal of eventually being the guy that owns the business (or whatever) can be the pragmatic choice.

Are plumbers licensed? Should I assume that just anyone can become a plumber?

Licensed trades have gatekeepers, e.g., my high-school friend couldn't be an electrician because he couldn't get a union internship. They were full and he didn't know anyone important. Also, I believe that the licensing required the completion of course work.

I have never had a job that didn't require college and also paid more than rent. It seems a strong assumption that there are ready alternatives which pay a subsistence or higher wage. Of course it is also a strong assumption that higher education will necessarily result in a subsistance or higher wage, but my point is that it seems unfounded to simply assume that there is a reliable practicable alternative just because there used to be. As far as I know, I don't know anyone who didn't go to college and can reliably pay rent by themselves, and I know lots of people who didn't go to college.

Could get by provided they had the right skin. If you read American novels up to about 1960 and pay attention to those high-melanin people you'll see a lot of "being stuck in a dead-end job".

That's true. I'm not American, didn't really think of the racial aspect of american social welfare. I think that's a bit more muted in europe, although it's still there.

I left home at 15; my story is complex, but abusive stepfather is the quick summary. It was the best thing I ever did. He forbade my mother and sister from seeing me and so I have not seen my mother who remains with him. I did meet my sister again, who had moved to England, 5 years ago. She is 9 years younger than me so we did not recognize eachother. She still is in contact with them and suffers anxiety and depression. I did years of therapy and healed via my work ( horror film maker/writer ). I have sisters and parents now that are not blood, but they mean more to me in a way because they are not obligated by social norms to support me. I hope that one day, when my stepfather is dead, I can again see my mother before she is. She is an interesting and brilliant person, but my connection to her is more like an old friend who I sadly fell out with.

Wow, healing this type of thing by writing horror. Thank you. I never really liked horror, but having experienced childhood trauma I think I understand how it helped you and may help me. Thanks.

I really wish more people would actively create non-blood family. I had this once and it helped me tremendously. Seems I need to cultivate that again, but it is much harder where I live now.

My relationship with horror, I associate with my childhood asthma. We did not have drug coverage so I did not have inhalers so from 4 I'd be up all night (1970s) watching TV. Horror movies were the only thing that distracted me, filled me with adrenaline, to unspiral my attacks. I was very allergic to cats; my stepfather's coke buddy had two Persian cats. The strangers who took me fomented in me hope for people in a way that I never would have had given my upbringing. Also, my mother was Lacanian child psych major and raised me without a Big Other etc. Told me, when I asked about church weddings on TV soap operas, what is it and she told me that it was just a silly TV thing. I believed this until I was fairly old. Cities - for example Toronto where I lived for 20 years - were hard to make friends in. At the same time, if you have always been urban, rural areas can be hard to parse socially. I really appreciate the non-judgment on horror. Thank you.

Thanks for sharing your story. It really helped me. I'm sorry to hear about your stepfather.

In my case, I grew up rural, but when I lived in the bay area for 15 years I had a wonderful non-blood family. I am now back where I grew up and I enjoy it but it is hard being so lonely.

The horror memoir book I wrote made me realize that part of the reason I am where I am - mostly content - is because of my stepfather. I sort of recoiled off him and, in that way, while my peers are in mid-life crisis I think folks like us had a early life crisis that can, if we are lucky to build a non-blood family, make the second half of life smooth. Thank you too!

The point of TFA is that if you weren't individualistic, you would maintain an unhealthy relationship with your dad out of a sense of obligation.

There are many cultures in which if your dad thinks you should be unhappy, then how dare you try to be (unilaterally) happy...

The article doesn't go into it but flipping things around I wonder if an individualistic culture can cause bad parenting?

If I'm from a culture where three generations are living under the same roof, I'd imagine people are socialized to try to get along more out of necessity since they have to divide the house without strangling each other. But that can also mean the parents are socialized to fight with their kids less.

Parents raising kids with an expectation of a reciprocal obligation in an individualistic culture certainly doesn't work (see any 1st generation immigrants from such cultures).

I do think though, that parents raising kids with the expectation that the children be individualistic can cause issues, particularly now that we aren't in a post-war economic boom that can broadly support this (kids are often made to feel ashamed for living with their parents).

The culture will adapt eventually and lots of kids will get messed up in the meantime.

Religion is causing serious harm to many families. I kind of have a relationship with my parents but I know my opinions are not welcome on politics and religion. They know their opinions are 100% infallible and I'm completely wrong.

We've kept it a secret that their step-grand-son is gay because then I may have to make a choice between my step-son and my parents and my parents won't like the decision I'll make.

At least they aren't part of one of the many sects that require disconnection from all those that don't agree.

I encourage people to support their local LGTBQ support organizations because some religious parents tell their LGTBQ kids that they are not welcome at home at a young age because they were born LGTBQ.

It's very sad.

In the old days you only needed to save a few (yes a few) thousand to buy a house. Now that generation prevents the rest of us the same, through housing scarcity and zero interest rates.

I wonder how much is related to politics, religion, drugs, or prior abuse? The article doesn't really explore the causes.

My young adult children live with me and don’t talk to me. I can’t imagine what it’ll be like when they’ve moved out.

Hopefully the space will help mend the issues. I know my respect for my parents sky rocketed once I left home.

Part of me came to this thread hoping to find that someone would have a similar situation to me, someone I could relate to. But that doesn't seem to be the case. I'm not estranged from my parents, but my sister is. And it's definitely less typical that most cases. We had a very stable upbringing, no abusive parents, nothing like that. Our parents got divorced when we were both very young (3 and 4), but it was always amicable between them. It's kind of complicated, but here's the gist:

Essentially, when she graduated university, she got a job and moved away. She met this guy who seemed really great and very soon after she started talking to me about "this great book she was reading", and a podcast by the author, and basically she was getting really into this thing. Some of you may be familiar with him, his name is Stefan Molyneux.

I just googled him to verify the spelling and apparently he's now considered a "far-right white supremacist", which is new to me but unsurprising. Back then I would have just considered him a "very strongly ideological anarcho-capitalist/libertarian", the "taxation is literally violence" type. There's a lot that could be said about him but that's beside the point. Suffice to say there's a section on his Wikipedia page titled "Cult accusations".

So back then, probably 7-8 years ago, his content was more focused on his libertarian ideals, but also various "self-help/improve your life"-type topics. This was more what my sister was into. One topic in particular is "De-FOOing" (Family of Origin). Essentially, cut off ties to your family. He gives lots of very compelling reasons why your family is terrible and you shouldn't talk to them anymore, in his typical intelligent-sounding charismatic cult-leader way.

Fast-forward a year or two, she's still getting along with everyone, but she definitely seemed to be thinking differently. A few minor things happened between her and my mom that she wasn't too happy about, and then my mom made the mistake of driving over to her place unannounced. Which, yeah, she probably shouldn't have done. But my sister responded by sending her a formal letter basically saying "don't ever come here again, and don't ever talk to me again or I'll be calling the police" and I think it was even signed by a lawyer or something. Basically just shy of a restraining order. This was really out of nowhere. I didn't really know how to react so I didn't say anything to her out of fear that she might do the same to me...

Not long after that she moved across the country without telling anyone except my dad, cut off communication with basically everyone she knew, including all of her friends and family (except my dad briefly, I think she called him once after moving).

I haven't seen her in 6 years, and no one has heard from since not long after that. The last communication I had with her was on my birthday over 5 years ago where she wished me a happy birthday and was happy that I had found a job after graduating college. Her birthday is 8 days after mine. I wished her a happy birthday, got no reply, and haven't heard from her since.

We got along great and there's no reason I can think of that she would want to cut ties with me, and I think that makes it worse. Sometimes the pain is hard to deal with. Our grandmother died a little over a month ago, and I honestly think it was more painful for me to know that she never got to see my sister again, than her death actually was. She lived across the street from us our entire childhood, would babysit us every morning when our dad was gone to work. She loved us with all her heart. I can't imagine the pain she must have felt knowing she wouldn't come back before the end. It just tears me apart.

I find myself regularly wondering whether I'll ever see her again. Whether she's even still alive. Would I even find out if she died? Is she even still in this country? God I hope she comes back soon. Or at the very least while our parents are still alive.

I don't even really know what I expect to get out of posting this, but it's a small relief to finally get some of it off my chest.

As someone who is pretty close with my siblings, I can't imagine the pain you must feel thinking about the last time you got to see her. Just reading this made me tear up. Sending you virtual hugs.

”All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.” — Leo Tolstoy, the opening lines of Anna Karenina

Sounds similar to the influence of a religious sect/cult on an individual. I'm reminded of the Scientology docs on Netflix right now.

It is sadly real, and difficult to reverse. However, there is literature on the best course of action.

If people with guns can come put you in a box for not paying a bill to society, that sounds violent

Archive link?

I'd like to see a study conducted of affluent children versus lower income children when talking about this. I'd guarantee affluent children cut off toxic family members because they can. Lower income ones done because they can't.

https://archive.ph/DgCgT

Not much to it.

n=1 so take it as just that, but I left my dad because we were broke. I suspected a gambling habit after he got evicted from the tiny apartment we grew up in, in the years after my mom passed away and her medical expenses had wiped us clean (cancer).

One day I just stopped returning his phone calls. I was about to fail out of college, broke myself, and couldn't take another phone call from him asking for money.

Anyway, I can imagine someone staying in the picture with their difficult parents if there's an inheritance involved.

In my case, I dipped in large part because of poverty.

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