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Comment by zero_billion | Hacker News Reader

great to know that you were actually able to quit social media and other heavy dopamine stimulants. this is inspiring!

any specific resources/framework/books that helped you along this journey?

Off the top of my head no, most of my insight came from observing addiction in others, and experimenting over the course of a decade. However, the two books which I guess started me on this journey are Why We Get Fat by Garry Taube [0] and The 4 Hour Body by Tim Ferris [1]. Both of these books take a scientific approach to diet (which is governed by habit and addiction, after all).

I will say this, I am convinced that for a lot of addictions, all you can do is substitute one addiction for another. But if the new addiction is something healthy, then I think that is fine. But if you do become a diet addict, keep it scientific, don't follow every blogspam diet fad.

For social-media, I substituted a typing instructor game. So when ever I felt the urge to go doomscrolling or something, I would fire up a typing game instead. I keep a windows VM on hand just to play TypingMaster. It takes 3-5 minutes to complete one of the training sessions (which is probably less than you would have wasted on twitter). This helps kill the urge, and break the cycle. Plus it makes me a better typist. And when you can do 90wpm on QWERTY, switch to DVORAK.

If you have a common chemical addiction like smoking, coffee, pain killers, alchohol then the only safe approach is the taper/step down. Measure how much you take now and then commit to reducing that amount by about 10% per week. So you smoke 18 a day instead of 20 in your first week. That's not so hard, right? Whatever you do, NEVER try cold turkey quitting any chemical, at least not before seeing a doctor. Chemical withdrawals range from terrible headaches for coffee, to deadly DTs from alcohol.

[0] http://garytaubes.com/works/books/why-we-get-fat

[1] https://fourhourbody.com

I love your typing idea. I do something similar, but with puzzles on lichess.

"Whatever you do, NEVER try cold turkey quitting any chemical, at least not before seeing a doctor."

This is terribly wrong information, to the point of causing more harm to people who take it seriously.

The ONLY common addictions that can possibly hurt you physically in withdrawal are Alcohol and Benzodiazapines (Valium, Xanax, Ativan, etc) and a family of related, common tranquilizers). And even then, you have to be a daily user to be at risk of harmful withdrawal... Unless you are actively getting drunk to avoid withdrawal symptoms, you are NOT in this risk group.

It is NOT possible to physically hurt yourself by cold-turkey quitting caffeine, nicotine, cocaine, amphetamines, MDMA, hallucinogens, or opiates. You may feel like you're gonna die, but you simply cannot hurt yourself due to quitting these substances. Mostly, you'll just be uncomfortable.

This distinction is REALLY important, because the fear of withdrawal (and life without a fix, generally) is already hugely terrifying to addicts who realize that they have a problem. But many (too many!) of these people have no access to a trusted doctor, and fear judgement, legal consequences, or termination of care if they seek medical help.

Please correct your comment, and stop feeding uninformed myths that have zero medical basis. Educate yourself before you give people any more advice on how to deal with chemical addictions.

(FWIW, I'm not a doctor, but I've spent plenty of time in 12-step meetings, and used & quit plenty of drugs.)

Psychiatrist here. This is true, and most people find recovery eventually without a formal program. Working with a doctor can make it much less comfortable in many cases--and in the case of opioids, can offer several options that can be lifesaving by preventing return to use and overdose.

"This is terribly wrong information, to the point of causing more harm to people who take it seriously."

^ this is generally correct for many of the classes of substances mentioned; however, it is also terribly wrong information concerning Opiate withdrawal.

I'm not sure in terms of case numbers - people can and do die from Opiate withdrawal due to vomiting and diarrhea leading to dehydration and/or heart failure due to elevated sodium levels.

This is clearly very preventable from a harm reduction perspective with the correct information.

Correct, dehydration-related complications are possible during opioid withdrawal, and I agree that it's hard to put a number on cases. The other significant risk is suicidality, which is very common during opioid withdrawal. In general, I tend not to recommend full, rapid, medically-supervised (or unsupervised) withdrawal from opioids, as the best option for most people is a transition to opioid agonist therapy with buprenorphine or methadone--which have profound mortality benefits. There are always exceptions--especially in people who prefer antagonist therapy with long-acting injectable naltrexone--but agonist therapy has the most data.

Ok, in the light of day I was following the precautionary principle a bit too closely. I wasn't thinking of MDMA.

However, you, like your peers, are downplaying withdrawal in general. The physiology of addiction is still quite mysterious. Race, gender, age, location and experience all modulate withdrawal symptoms. Just looking at the top 3 consumer addictions you find, e.g.

Caffeine withdrawal symptoms: impaired behavioral and cognitive performance, decreased or increased blood pressure, decreased motor activity, increased heart rate, hand tremor, increased diuresis, skin flushing, flu-like symptoms, nausea/vomiting, constipation, muscle stiffness, joint pains, and abdominal pain https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK430790/

Nicotine withdrawal symptoms: anxiety, awakening during sleep, depression, difficulty concentrating, impatience, irritability/anger and restlessness. Slowing of the heart rate and weight gain are distinguishing features of tobacco withdrawal. Although nicotine withdrawal may not produce medical consequences, it lasts for several weeks and can be severe in some smokers. Like most other drug withdrawals, nicotine withdrawal is time-limited, occurs in non-humans, is influenced by instructions/expectancy and abates with replacement therapy and gradual reduction. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1360-0443....

Codeine: Negative emotions, such as depression, anger, or irritability anxiety and restlessness, shedding tears, difficulty concentrating, dilated pupils, headaches, sinus congestion and sneezing, digestive problems, such as diarrhea, bloating, and constipation, stomach pain and nausea, chills or hot flashes, intense muscle aches, bone and joint aches and pains, tremors and shaking, trouble sleeping

For many people, withdrawal symptoms are similar to those of a more severe bout of flu. A person experiencing withdrawal may not be able to work or go to school for several days https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326849

In addition to those symptoms mentioned, there can be significant tertiary affects, as a result of the anxiety, stress and depression, which have been shown to cause acute physical and long term health problems if not treated.

So, at the very least, if you want to go cold turkey, rather than taper slowly, you should do some research on the withdrawal symptoms and how to manage them. Otherwise you are much more likely to fail at quitting.

thanks, will check out these books.

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