Room C, where my little ballerina danced | Hacker News Reader

Room C, where my little ballerina danced

jenniferbrogdon.substack.com

67 pointsambitiousfox46 comments

I'm going to take a different PoV to defend the typers/phone talkers :) They're not bad parents.

A lot of these kinds of things are weekly practices during the work day. Parents have to drive their kids 20-30 minutes to these events. You're usually stuck in a waiting room, trying to just keep your head above water on work stuff you're missing to maintain a career and support your family.

I wish we could revel in every small thing our kids do, but indeed, that's not realistic. Working at home there are _many_ times I wish I could spend with my kids I can't. It's heart crushing.

This kind of article just piles on the guilt. Sometimes we just need to work to earn for our family. We do this so later we can spend dedicated time with our kids another time..

My comment above was meant as a reply to you.

Exactly. Weekly ballet practice is very repetitive. Sure it might be nice to watch the first couple times but soon it’s not very interesting. Are you actually going to remember every single one?

It’s much better to have a variety of experiences with kids than to amass sheer quantity of hours. I look back on my childhood and I remember the special things my parents did with me, I don’t count up how many hours they watched my random activities.

> Are you actually going to remember every single one?

You won't, but many kids will remember that single time their parents weren't there for them, or that single time that something did happen that they didn't like. Or that their parent was always bored or checked out whenever they came to events. The solution isn't to pretend kids are okay with anything, it's to be realistic about the trade-offs you choose to make.

The critical thing is to talk to the kid about what can be expected and when.

Let them know when you'll be there and be present when you are. Involve the kid in determining when you'll be there if you can. For the times you can't go, talk to the kid about how it went, what was good/bad, etc, taking the kid's lead if they're not feeling like talking about it.

I played baseball as a kid, age ~8 - 12. My parents sat me down when I signed up and explained that they could not be there for every game but would be there when they could. If there was a game that I specifically wanted them to attend, to let them know ahead of time. They asked me about every game they couldn't attend, were excited if I was, dropped it if I didn't want to talk about it, etc.

There were times I was sad they weren't there (grand slam home run, great plays). There were times when I was happy they weren't there (struck out every at bat on bad pitches, dropped an easy catch, etc). But I knew ahead of time if they'd be there, which was what made it easier for kid-me to understand and deal with.

This was how most of the families did it. The other parents got to know the friends of their kids and would cheer for them, too, which made it a friendly environment.

The situation you described is exactly what I was talking about. It sounds healthy, loving, and happy, while also working around the realities of life and emotions. Sounds like a great arrangement.

I genuinely have no recollection of what my parents did at my baseball games or practice. In general they were loving and very involved as parents, so I'm sure they were watching when I was at bat. But I was just focused on the game.

> You won't, but many kids

I never said all kids, I said many kids.

Key difference between practices and events. Practices are boring, and parents being checked out or plain absent during practice is perfectly fine. Recitals and performances are a big deal.

> You won't, but many kids

I didn't say every kid, I said many kids. Maybe you think it's fine if your parents are checked out, but not all kids do. Why assume and not just treat the kid like a human, ask them how they feel, and go from there? Otherwise you may end up in one of the countless scenarios where the kid harbors lifelong resentment for things the parent thought was perfectly fine to do. If you haven't witnessed such scenarios firsthand, that's lucky for you and your loved ones.

> Sometimes we just need to work to earn for our family.

I think this is situational. If you’re barely scraping by then absolutely. If you’re fairly well off though you’re just working to buy a bigger house, better phone, faster car, etc. To each their own, but for me personally I’ve reduced work to hang out with my kids (and I’m not wealthy by first world standards).

I don’t think there’s any point in guilting people about it though. Just be aware that you often can subsist on less to free up time, if that’s appealing. I think a lot of us just do the thing (9-5 or w/e) because everyone else is and it seems normal.

> If you’re fairly well off though you’re just working to buy a bigger house

I'd settle for just paying off the house I currently own, thanks.

Well if you’re paying it off you don’t really own it do you :)

> I’ve reduced work to hang out with my kids (and I’m not wealthy by first world standards).

Perhaps you have some tips but reducing work is very hard to manage in my experience.

Salaried positions are a crapshoot - many of them like to say they support work-life balance but it rarely turns out that way.

Most employers ( again, IME ) who hire contractors are not looking for anything less than 40 hours/week.

You can set yourself up as a contractor and take the jobs you want, but besides the obvious loss of health insurance and retirement benefits, there's time spent finding customers and the lack of steady pay has its own costs.

I'd love to reduce hours, but I've never found a way to make it work.

> I'd love to reduce hours, but I've never found a way to make it work.

How seriously have you tried? I don’t know you or your situation but often when someone says this they just mean “that sounds nice, but…”. If it’s something you really want, treat it like a job to figure it out. I’m glad I put in the effort and time to work it out. It’s a mix of reducing / eliminating expenses and trying different things. There are so many options once you (and your partner) decide you want it more than a million dollar house etc. The specifics depend on the individual.

Most of the things we collectively (society) spend money on are unnecessary and often even detrimental to contentment. For the things that are necessary, there are often cheaper options. I’m not referring to some kind of new age self help nonsense. Just look how your grandparents or great grandparents lived during the depression.

Budget isn't a problem. I'd happily take a pay cut, my expense are minimal. There just aren't that many employers interested in hiring someone for fewer hours.

> many of them like to say they support work-life balance but it rarely turns out that way

Just work the required number of hours and then stop answering e-mail. Financial security helps with that, because at most they'll let you go for "not being a team player" - these are bad workplaces and you should be happy to leave them.

More likely though, your perceived worth at work will improve because you don't appear insecure about your position.

It reminds me of a NYT article about how many women at work have baby monitors, just watching their baby, wishing they could be with it, while working. Pretty heartbreaking.

I wouldn't say I'm against capitalism necessarily, but it does seem to have resulted in a situation where a lot of us are kept apart from the things and people we really want to be with.

Thank you. We are constantly guilting parents about everything -- it's tiresome.

A friend of mine was distraught when she decided to stop breast feeding and to move to formula for a host of reasons (pain, difficulties meeting other demands, etc.).

But the media has propagated this meme that using formula is so much worse than breast feeding, when there's no solid evidence that is the case. [1]

Making parents feel terrible about all of these unmet expectations of being the perfect parent is actively harmful for their mental health. Guilt-ridden parents aren't good for anyone. It's the parenting equivalent of young people comparing their lives to the fake lives they see on Instagram -- holding themselves to an impossible standard.

1. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/everybody-calm-down-abo...

Or simply don't enroll your kid in these type of events and enjoy a simpler life together. Many parents these days over-schedule themselves and their children, and then wonder why they are stressed and have little quality time together.

As a parent, I had to learn not to pay much attention. Some, yes, but my son did better, focused more, and was less emotional if he knew I wasn't watching. Like with all things, it's a balance. You want to enjoy what you can, because they grow fast. You want them to become independent, so you need to not pay attention all the time. You want them to know that you love them, so you want to pay some attention. You don't want them to believe they are the center of the world, so you honestly need to ignore them, too. If you don't give yourself some downtime, you become a worse parent over the medium term. The worst part is that the specific weights for the various options are always changing as they develop.

Parenting is tough, and the only key indicator I've found is that if something is difficult to do, it is more likely to be the better course of action ;)

You nailed it! Paying attention means they're waving at you and shouting rather than listening to the instructor or following the cues. And you want to be a "teammate" in their activities to max out the "quality" in quality time but then they end up depending on you more often than not.

Modern Parenting sucks. My Great Grandparents worked 7 days a week on their farm and had 13 children. You really think they'd be watching each one do ballet? The kids had a great time playing on the streets with their siblings and friends. They are mostly still close - sounds like a great childhood. Modern children are way over scheduled I feel sorry for them.

Hellooo, False Dichotomy.

It's not a false dichotomy at all. The discussion is about constant parental attention to childrens' activities; your parent points out a situation with the complete absence of such attention, and happy children nonetheless, as a counterpoint to the narrative. It's a good point and it's unfair to flippantly dismiss it.

You're right. It could've been used as a false dichotomy, but that was an uncharitable reading of the comment. I do disagree that it's a good counterpoint. It relies on a completely unsubstantiated claim that people with these kinds of upbringings turned out just fine and have no lasting issues because of it.

Maybe not False dichotomy but agreed that it isn't a greatest comparison. Plus my Grand parents siblings were a bunch of yokels that would barely know what ballet looks like. I'm just tired of my kid's friends all doing everything.

Counterpoint: In those times, children often spent time around their parents' work, and sometimes pitched in with (hopefully age appropriate) tasks. So instead of the parent watching the child in ballet practice, the two would, e.g. pick apples together.

Addiction to devices is real. If that is the main criticism of this article, then I agree that it requires vigilance.

But I think it’s unrealistic to expect parents to be fully present 100% of the time. It is important to be fully present enough of the time.

I wonder if the author would equally criticize the use of novels or sketch pads.

In my mind, there is a big difference between being fully present for a performance / competition vs being fully present for a practice. The first feels important. The second feels like being expected to attentively watch your kid playing in a playroom.

It's not only not realistic, it's not good for kids. They need time that's not observed by their parents to grow and develop as autonomous individuals.

Also, I find watching my daughter's dance practice boring, and I feel zero guilt for that. I'd rather read a book while she dances, and focus on her when I can actually play with her.

The author is not a better parent than me, or than the other moms she's criticizing. She can feel smug if she wants, but I'm very confident in that.

After having a kid, I learned many surprising things about parenthood and about myself.

One is the absolute joy of watching my little one do... pretty much anything. It's an infinitely more powerful drug than anything social media or entertainment companies have managed to invent so far.

Two is how much less judgemental I feel towards other parents, especially how reluctant I am to draw conclusions over small interactions where I don't know anyone's circumstances.

Needless to say, this article brought up very conflicting feelings for me!

Some of the parents in that room are full time parents. They are engaged with their child from the moment the child wakes them up until the moment that child goes to bed, and then they'll probably be engaged again when that child wakes up in the middle of the night. Just like I need breaks from work to function better during the non-breaks, those parents need time for their brains to relax a bit. That's super normal.

They do grow up fast. Things change when you have more than one, you may find that you cannot devote yourself to everything your kids are doing. You still care, you still support them, but you can't do everything.

I think this was more of a comment on parents who would rather scroll Instagram than watch the dance lesson in front of them. Let me assure you, they do exist (and I've been guilty of it too).

We shouldn’t make parents feel guilty about stuff like this. Are we pretending that they are somehow mistreating their children because they didn’t watch their lesson? If they are happy with their choices why judge them.

There is nothing wrong with that. Fuck this guilt-tripping.

Parents spend significantly more time with their kids today. Almost twice as much vs. the 60s https://ourworldindata.org/parents-time-with-kids

I get that people love a preachy guilt trip but those moms were doing just fine.

I absolutely love it when I am present for when my kids start learning something. It's delightful to watch them learn and figure things out and take their first steps. Sometimes whatever they are learning is something they enjoy, and sometimes it's not. For my son the first time he realized he was consistently hitting the ball in baseball was great. For my daughter it was getting control of the ball in soccer. The novelty is delightful.

One thing I learned over time though, is that when I am present is that my presence is a distraction. It wasn't something I figured out - my son straight up told me. When I am there at a practice, he is constantly checking if I am watching, because he wants to make sure he is doing well (not because I am a crazy perfectionist parent - I hope... ) because he wants to show off. By not being fully engaged and present I give him the freedom to practice and make the mistakes that are necessary for bridging a basic skill to mastery.

I enjoy watching them learn, but not at the cost of my children being distracted from the task at hand. I will be present for every performance, and every game, but if I am going to a practice, I will generally drop the kids off and take a walk to give them space to mess up without being concerned what I am going to think or how I might respond.

The article said she watched from the lobby’s screen. Her daughter couldn't see her watching. That makes sense for you though.

There are two sides to this.

The first side to this is that kids want their parents to show an interest in their activities. The ballerina activities in this article are about practice. Not a performance. Practice. Expecting grown adults to sit there and be transfixed every minute by a clumsy child doing clumsy child things is a venture into virtue-signaling. If the parents were doing that in the audience in front of their kids while their kids were performing, THEN it's an issue. This is NOT an issue.

Kids also need space. They need space to express themselves as individuals, and they also need space to learn to enjoy activities because THEY like them. Omni-present parents don't allow them the freedom to do this.

If you exposed little girls to what we consider to be "normal dancing," and also exposed them to ballet... but told them they could dress up like ballerinas for either, the vast majority of them are NOT choosing ballet.

Ballet is a form of dance that parents choose to show to other parents that THEY made it.

I have to say, nobody should take parenting advice from HN.

To those defending paying attention to your phone instead of your kid — get a grip and get your priorities straight. Your kids are only young for so long and then it’s over forever. The article here is trying to remind you that each moment is precious, whether you realize it or not.

Why are you wasting time on HN instead of watching your kids?

During the baby boom, the kids outnumbered the parents enough that nobody expected the kind of attention this writer is talking about. The economist and computer scientist Herbert Simon born long before the boom, wrote of his own childhood that there was no Little League then: neighborhood baseball was for the kids and they didn't really want parents look over their shoulders.

[Edit] I should add that I had attentive and affectionate parents.

As the book says "It takes a village to armchair quarterback you raising your child".

Not trying to impose guilt. One of the dance nights I worked on my grocery order because it needed to be done. Like someone else said, its more directed towards wanting to scroll mindlessly instead of delihhting in your child. And it's also about me fighting that. We all struggle with wanting to be on our phones.

> Like someone else said, its more directed towards wanting to scroll mindlessly instead of delihhting in your child

Parents need a break from constant mental engagement with their children; taking it while the child is fully engaged in something like dance practice that doesn't requite the parent’s involvement can enable them to be more fully and functionally present when they are actually needed.

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