Haiku Beta 3
haiku-os.org
haiku-os.org
Makes you yearn for simpler times.
This was my experience with QNX 6 two decades ago. Installing and booting into its beautiful Photon desktop environment took less time than it took to just boot Windows 2000.
> And this was in a VM with SATA disk backing.
Believing virtualization always makes things slower is a mistake. Windows XP always booted and worked a lot faster in a VirtualBox under Linux than it did directly on the same machine.
I remember I tried QNX Neutrino sometime in the first half of the 2000's, and it literally booted from a 1.44MB floppy into a UI (Photon), and had a working browser and everything needed to setup an internet connection (back then, this included dialup related stuff).
Of all OSes that could have been, this is the one I am most upset about not succeeding. I know it still exists in some forms, but it's pretty much fringe.
Refs:
I also miss Photon's visual style. Subjectively, it was the best I've ever seen (and Haiku feels somewhat close to this taste actually). If somebody would offer a bundle of Linux (XFCE, GNOME, KDE) and Windows (10) themes resembling QNX 6 Photon I would buy them for some real money.
It has safety certifications that are so far difficult to achieve with anything else able to support the required use cases.
But what seems really weird to me is why do nuclear power plants and critical oil infrastructure (as hacked recently) use Windows when there is QNX.
Well, virtualization does make everything slower.
It's just that the boot process ends up quite fast as the virtual machine usually has a much less (and simpler) hardware to initialize at boot, has a simpler BIOS/UEFI, and shorter if any power-on self test. A physical machine can be made to those specs - Intel has done <2s boot from power is applied till a graphical application is visible and fully interactive for automotive back in 2019.
Then it could probably boot even faster under QEMU/KVM.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiku_(operating_system)#Compa...
It would explain, why I couldn't find that "how to build the toolchain" page anymore through some quick browsing and posted the Wikipedia reference instead. I guess somebody(TM) should update the Wikipedia page then.
I used to test every iso of Haiku I found, but it felt very much a development project then actual system for simple daily use. I wonder what's the status now.
It has the second, and third (Python 3 is ported). It's POSIX-compliant, so there's tons of Linux/Unix CLI stuff available.
There is a package manager with a lot of software, both native and ported. Many of the staples are available (LibreOffice, VLC, etc.), but there's also a lot missing, some with alternatives (there's no GIMP, but there is Krita, for example).
Overall, I think it's usable as a basic system, but you could definitely run into some issues with software availability and web browsing if you want to do more powerful stuff.
I wish they'd rather port Inkscape.
Sounds like a win/win to me!
This sounds pretty usable to me already.
Lazarus also is available which means the emerging Sublime-replacement CudaText editor can be ported as well as the Double Commander.
[1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06/a-decidedly-non-linu...
However, TuneTracker and its associated suite of tools for radio station automation ran on BeOS and then on Haiku. It's been a few years since the website was updated, so I do not know if it's still active, but it was worth running in a very specific setting.
I uninstalled it because I needed to get back to a system I knew better for a while. For one minor detail, QMMP had some freezing bug, but man I loved that haiku skin. I guess it's time to try it again and see how it goes with the various use cases.
> improvements to Wi-Fi networking to match FreeBSD 13
Just curious, why this match in particular? Was it a goal of some kind or is this mainly a reference freebie due to the reuse of some component?
What is the optimal hardware configuration to run Haiku on bare metal? I don't mean as cheap as possible, I mean as compatible as possible and also rather performant.
The release notes mention nVidia GeForce 6200 - GeForce Go 6400 graphics cards - are these the best for Haiku?
https://sites.google.com/view/haiku-computer-list-beta2
https://besly.de/index.php/en/hardware/unofficel-compatibili... (edit: newer list: https://besly.de/index.php/en/hardware/besly-system-analysis...)
Not really sure what exactly would be optimal, but Haiku's pretty performant on virtually any relatively modern hardware (less than 10 years old and not overly cheap) since it's so light.
What I'm seeing are some package resolution errors. Things like haikuwebkit higher version wanting beta 3 (which is not yet installed), and giving me options to keep my old version or ignore it.
https://www.haiku-os.org/news/2021-06-22_important_change_re...
(At this point usually someone here insists that I file a bug. Which I won't do because a) I have no useful information to put into a bug report and b) I think after eleven years of this nonsense it's probably in there about 200 times already anyway.)
Oh, look. Can't even press the space bar to get an unintelligible error anymore.
A spare desktop PC have always been of more value to me, when playing around with lesser used operating systems. Hardware and drivers just work better. A wired ethernet connection is also recommended.
If you don't have the space for a PC, I'll recommend getting an older Intel NUC.
Just to add: I really respect the work different people on the Haiku project put in for so many years; even the controversial package manager turned out to be really brilliant.
I have been following the project since it started; I ran BeOS on my PowerMac and then on my PCs for a while, before it became impractical.
The thing with voluntary projects is people naturally work on what they find randomly interesting - this may not be the fastest path to create a working system for a reasonable number of end users.
As for my experiences, I have always had Haiku boot but have never been satisfied with hardware support (e.g. limited to certain VESA modes for video, unsupported network card). I accept that's part for the course given what Haiku is and can still appreciate the work that has been put into it.
I'd say my initial experience of playing around with distros/burning to CDs, etc were instrumental to my learning about what different terminology meant, but overall right now, it's just such a time sink with no real benefit. Same reason why I don't just stop what I'm doing to learn Zig or Objective-S or whatever. There are so many tools to do the same damn thing and while it may be useful for self-learning or potentially a very specific problem set, it's just not worth the mental investment to accomplish any real goals.
It sucks to think about things in this context but it's a real constraint.
At this point, my advice to anyone wanting to create a brand new OS would be to limit their scope to something like the Raspberry Pi line so they have a very limited set of hardware they have to support[0]. Of course, Haiku started long before the Raspberry Pi existed so that wasn't really an option for them.
[0] Unless you count USB peripherals of course. Ugh.
We pick some basic set of specs, a processor, and run the whole thing on FPGAs so we control all the circuits and can always make an ASIC if we want. Full control, full power. Like what if MiSTer was considered a valid target for productivity software?
Like we agree to go back to nothing and build the whole thing. Graphics drivers a problem? Design a new graphics system, all open.
Would it be current? No. But it would be really open, and easy to develop for.
It's taking a page from retrocomputing and going "What if instead we built productivity software and made it a valid base for modern computing, what would we need?"
I don't really know how many people would be interested in this approach though.
The whole point of Alpine is to NOT have vim (or anything else) by default.
Meanwhile I can definitely boot RiscOS on a Pi containing built-in apps with a 1987 copyright message in them. I mean I can't then really do anything with it, but it's still got Haiku beat.
Edit: there's literally a massive thread (https://discuss.haiku-os.org/t/computers-compatible-with-hai...) on the Haiku forums that documents just a small fraction of the hardware Haiku works on.
RiscOS (which was a wilfully-obtuse comparison on my part, but since you're digging in [edit: in fact, creating an account on HN for no reason except to promote it on this thread], I'll run with it for your benefit) has without question already actually run on a number of devices -- though granted, not types of devices -- at least one or two orders of magnitude larger than this thing ever will, at the rate it's going.
And you're right, I created an account to comment on this thread. If you think disagreeing with you on this means I'm "promoting" Haiku as some sort of shill (my two points were literally that it's an OS and it boots on hardware, how controversial) then you're entitled to your opinion I guess.
Why, to put it more briefly, does Haiku insist on being treated as a serious operating system when it simultaneously clearly runs on less stuff than most other OSes and yet requires us to pretend that it's in the same class as those other OSes?
(This doesn't happen with ReactOS. But then they don't have the social disability of resolutely insisting that we all pay attention to them as a Very Important Thing.)
[edit: I forgot the big one: after over eleven years would it kill them to at least once spit out a fucking error message? Or is the total lack of information with which a person could file a useful bug report in fact the intent?]
i had an old laptop that runs just fine (albeit with a tiny bit of fiddling). you're free not to believe me though, it's your opinion after all.
> requires us to pretend that it's in the same class as those other OSes?
lmfao, did they ever?
shut up and get your shit together.
This is a sub-thread to the original complaint (which was quite reasonable), where OP is taking on an oddly hostile and aggressive tone, and powerfully punching at various strawmen. I'm not sure what you think an adequate reaction would be.
[0] since there appears to be a list of known good hardware, maybe it should be prominent?
From the perspective that Haiku is a product, would you rather have people associate your product with people who took your frustrated feedback to heart or people who told you to shut up because you missed a burreid forum posting about hardware compatibility? If you're an enthusiast of said product, you're doing no one any favors by being hostile.
> Ars Technica literally made a long article about how Haiku worked on a cheap-ass laptop
Which does nothing for someone who couldn't get it to run on any of the hardware they tried it on.
> and you're here complaining about other people being angry about op being this rude
I'm just saying, it's sadly very common, does nothing to help anybody, and leaves people with a negative opinion of their community.
Ah i see you must be too blind to see others have tried not being hostile, failed and get called out as having "social disability".
> Which does nothing for someone who couldn't get it to run on any of the hardware they tried it on.
Sure:
1. People have to help you here no matter what even if you're being very rude. 2. Certainly "it does not work on my machines" to "it does not work on anything" is a very reasonable stretch!
> I'm just saying, it's sadly very common, does nothing to help anybody, and leaves people with a negative opinion of their community.
if someone could just not leave other people with a negative opinion of him/her/themselves lol
> > keep on venting about social disability bullshit
> I don't even know what this means, but have a suspicion that if I did I would have a low opinion of you as a person for saying it.
seriously? lmfao, that phrase goes for you too, shut up and get your shit together.
as for the "does not help anybody" bit, yeah clearly venting like you do helps a heck lot to everybody.
A lot of people have been frustrated about the thing does not work for them (yes including me myself) but why does OP get the hate he/she/they get? If you can't figure that out yourself, you should probably do something else instead of keep posting here.
Not at all. It is entirely possible to simply ignore them. We even have a system of downvoting and flagging for people being overly hostile.
> if someone could just not leave other people with a negative opinion of him/her/themselves lol
That's their problem to deal with on their own. When you represent the Haiku community badly, that's everyone in the Haiku community's problem.
> seriously? lmfao, that phrase goes for you too, shut up and get your shit together.
I deleted that part when I read back to find what you were referencing because I realized it didn't at all mean what I suspected it meant. Although my opinion of you as a person is lowering for other reasons.
it's truly, truly a sad mental state to consider anyone has to be representing some certain community. really hope someday you can pull yourself out of that.
> Although my opinion of you as a person is lowering for other reasons.
lower it as much as you want my friend, seriously wouldn't mind if some random stupid asshole insists considering me a stupid asshole.
I feel like when you apply this standard of "overlook the tone, understand the message" asymmetrically to only one "side" of the argument, it highlights your biases.
As an aside, if you look at the proportion of comments (and maybe even the fuzzy timestamps while they're still discernible), the original commenter's hostile comments outnumber their "just frustrated" ones, while a large majority of responses to them are civil and constructive. The 'shut up and get your shit together' was in response some weirdly aggressive attack on the Haiku mantainers/contributors, after OP had also called the OS dogshit.
Anyway, this is all mostly off-topic and I have no affiliation with Haiku at all, but I just didn't want an unwarranted attack on obviously motivated and passionate developers' labour of love go undefended.
It's pretty simple. If people have an unfavorable opinion of handelaar, that's handelaar's problem. But if people have a negative opinion of the Haiku community based on how Haiku enthusiasts have treated handelaar, that's Haiku's problem. If you're a supporter of Haiku you're not doing anyone any favors by behaving that way.
> Anyway, this is all mostly off-topic and I have no affiliation with Haiku at all, but I just didn't want an unwarranted attack on obviously motivated and passionate developers' labour of love go undefended.
Eh, I look at it differently. If you're making a product you intend for public consumption, this sort of thing is just something you have to accept. Just because it is a labor of love for somebody doesn't make it good nor excuse it from criticism.
Granted, we'd all be better off if handelaar had expressed themselves more reasonably.
Absolutely a fair point.
I really don't see how Haiku "requires" you to take it seriously. It's clearly marked as beta. Even though I disagree with those who might call it daily driver-ready, I don't understand the source of this hostility. If you don't want to "waste your time" with it, then don't. It's beta software developed by volunteers, none of whom are forcing you to download their OS.
Also, if these instructions (https://www.haiku-os.org/docs/welcome/en/bugreports.html#ker...) don't help you with your bug report, then I dunno what to tell you, I guess the gods have decided you shouldn't use Haiku.
A list of the chipsets involved, or just brands and models of the laptops would also help.
My laptop supports 1366x768 but for some reason got blank screen. Lower resolution seems to work fine.