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Comment by jerkstate | Hacker News Reader

Signal has been adding lots of silly social media like features lately, not surprising that they are messing up the core value prop. I’m shopping for a new encrypted messenger. They used to say every program expands in scope until it can read email, now every app expands until you can add Snapchat filters to your selfies.

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Matrix is a solid replacement. Element isn't as easy to use but it's coming along. Quality-of-life features normal users expect like stickers, gifs, etc. are woefully lacking, but the important stuff (y'know, actual messaging) is solid.

The most important thing to me is if Element screws up like Signal and starts pushing a shitcoin, I can swap clients without affecting my network.

Also, Matrix supports other client implementations than Element, like https://fluffychat.im/

Fluffychat is my go-to for getting normies on matrix.

I can’t even possibly pitch the name alone to anyone but few preteens. Even teenagers won’t be interested.

Matrix is anything but a Signal replacement. It’s so convoluted and really questionable UX for personal communication.

I think Signal (in its current form and direction) is a gone case but so is Matrix.

Matrix is anyway chasing Slack not WhatsApp. I think that’s a smart move.

Matrix is a protocol, Element is a Slack-like app on Matrix.

It sounds like you have issues with Element as a replacement for Signal, which I totally get, but I think it's worth distinguishing Element from Matrix.

Element being the only full-featured Matrix app hopefully won't always be the case and it's Matrix's express goal to change that. Element is a single reference implementation -- if it's successful it could spawn many others supporting different UIs and use-cases, which we're already seeing with Fluffychat sporting a Signal-like chat interface.

I'm pushing my family and friends to use Matrix because that's the direction I want the world to go (open protocol with many different clients and servers communicating), not because we're already there today.

I should have been clear about that. Yes, I am aware that Matrix and Vector>Riot>Element are different.

In fact Matrix as a protocol even less of a Signal replacement. People get perturbed by tiny amount of sign up friction and imagine self hosting. But then if you assume, and that's what I did assume, that for the sake of considering Matrix/Element as a replacement of Signal we stick to matrix.org server. That essentially makes Matrix as Signal replacement.

Also, when people usually talk about Matrix being adopted by masses they are talking about Matrix on matrix.org (or that's my understanding which may be incorrect as well).

> Also, when people usually talk about Matrix being adopted by masses they are talking about Matrix on matrix.org (or that's my understanding which may be incorrect as well).

No idea how you got that understanding. With respect to adoption the server does not matter at all (though many consider it advantageous if it is not matrix.org)

It’s not enough for signal to work for tech people. You have to be able to convince your family and friends to use it, it’s a network effects problem. They are adding features so that ordinary people can have private communications

ordinary people don't give a flying f** about being able to send someone crypto currency via their messaging app.

But everyone wants to send money or money-equivalents. I use Venmo almost every other day.

But why roll that in to a chat app? Why not use your bank's app (or if you live in a country with a 19th century banking system like the USA, something like Venmo)?

I guess because your chat app is also your contacts management app, even if by accident.

Because I have performed out of band verification for contacts in my chat app.

Though many of their competing apps support this feature. Facebook, Apple, WeChat, etc.

If that's the case, why did they remove SMS import?

It used to be "just install that, you will be more secure and won't notice the difference". To "you will lose all your messages".

And its MMS support is both gravely broken and has been declared a non-priority (I don't have the link handy, but also don't care if folks think I'm lying)

I don't know that this incident will cause me to uninstall Signal, but it for sure is going to get my recurring donation cancelled

If I fix the MMS for my carrier *again* and then that fix is ignored or rejected, that's when I'll uninstall it

I use delta-chat (chat over imap) and it’s fantastic.

Decentralized / federated e2e chat, running on the Internet’s most well-known, resilient, universally supported, self-hostable infrastructure: email.

How does delta deal with new chats, fallback and other standard email client stuff? Does it allow mixing encrypted and unencrypted messages? What happens if I use an alternative mail client, will I still be able to read email from people after the project dies and the clients stop working?

I don't think people will appreciate it when I suddenly start using email as a standard communications method, but it's worth a shot. The client looks like a copy of Telegram (a good thing, in my opinion) and everyone already has email, so I'm willing to give it a shot I guess. I'm currently on the Matrix camp but it's not like that's a protocol many non techs use in the real world.

I'm just wary of using email for this because of all of the previous failures to secure email, like PGP, S/MIME and variations thereof.

> Does it allow mixing encrypted and unencrypted messages? What happens if I use an alternative mail client, will I still be able to read email from people after the project dies and the clients stop working?

Yes. It uses the AutoCrypt standard, which exists independent of delta chat and has standalone software, + plugins for various email clients. I use a plugin for mutt so I can read my delta chat messages without the official client. You can issue new key pairs or turn off e2e as you like.

> I don't think people will appreciate it when I suddenly start using email as a standard communications method, but it's worth a shot

Fair, though perhaps technically simpler than getting others to download Yet Another Chat App™.

> ...previous failures to secure email, like PGP, S/MIME and variations thereof.

Did PGP and S/MIME fail? Services like ProtonMail use that tech to great effect. IMO it never hit the main stream because mainstream mail providers, etc want to read your email. There's some argument about usability but after using ProtonMail I don't buy those arguments.

> Did PGP and S/MIME fail? Services like ProtonMail use that tech to great effect. IMO it never hit the main stream because mainstream mail providers, etc want to read your email. There's some argument about usability but after using ProtonMail I don't buy those arguments.

In my personal experience, I've never seen anyone use PGP extensively for more than a month or so. The lack of PGP in most common mobile mail clients certainly doesn't help; switching email apps is annoying.

I don't think companies reading your email is the main incentive for companies to not implement PGP. It's perfectly possible to do PGP server side for free mail accounts like Gmail or Outlook, with proper PGP support in Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail, etc.

PGP is complex, especially for people who don't know cryptography, and the lack of cloud sync of private keys and central account management makes it much harder to use than modern chat applications even for non-novice users.

I've never used ProtonMail and I don't know anyone who does, so my experience may not be representative. Then again, the fact I don't know anyone who uses ProtonMail might also indicate that PGP still hasn't gained that much market share.

It seems to use E2E encryption with some trust-on-first-use protocol called Autocrypt:

https://delta.chat/en/help#encryption

I really like the idea of delta chat, except that I cannot bring myself to allow it access to my full imap mailbox. And most providers do not offer a way to scope access to only selected folders.

You can use a separate mailbox just for delta chat

Sure. But that throws away the advantage of already having an identity.

Every time something like this comes up, I say something like, "Who wants to switch to Matrix (ie, Element, and before that, Riot Chat)?"

But then, I myself don't end up doing it, largely because of the network effect on Signal.

I think we need to just remember to always keep 3-5 of them open so we can have some horizontal evolution.

I’ve tried Element. I think Signal is probably easier to setup and use for most non-technical people on comparison.

Personally I want to have secure communications with _all_ my friends and family, not just the paranoid tech nerds and people I can pressure into it.

If this is what the masses want, give it to them. Encryption only works if people use it.

Threema seems great so far. Not many users though, sadly. Element (matrix.org) is good as well, but it's not polished and lacks users as well.

Threema could get on Matrix and it would be awesome - or federate with it. Maybe Wire as well. Such excellent apps.

However finding connections just by numbers is really a killer feature

Matrix, in non-federated mode, is by far the toughest messaging protocol to crack.

Still dependent on proper UI engineering, like Signal failed to do.

>by far the toughest messaging protocol to crack.

Citation needed.

It's necessary if you want to attract the mainstream users, who could not care less for e2e security but values stickers, filters and stories above all else.

I hate the new ability to add emoji responses to message chat bubbles. It has turned my conversations (especially group ones) into a Facebook like experience where everyone expects a cry face emoji or heart on everything they say. It gives me that same feeling of dread I used to get when I had a Facebook. I just want to send and receive text messages, not be engaged constantly to my phone.

Which makes it like using Slack!

I for one would rather they spent less time on these ‘features’.

The only possible competitor (from a network effect perspective) is Matrix/Element.

The UX is completely unpolished and at least 5 years behind Signal.

While I hate these features as much as everybody else on HN, they are likely necessary if they ever want the app to go mainstream.

Threema is worth a shot. Signal looks promising but isn't quite there yet.

Crap, I meant Session looks promising, not Signal.

Delta chat starts from reading email and theb works backwards: https://delta.chat/en/

Cool, my contacts can keep using their gmail account and leak all communication metadata to Google without me having any say on that if I want to talk to them. Where can I sign up?

Maybe gently encourage your contacts to use another provider?

Nah, easier to get them to Signal when a large portion of their peers is already there. Plus Signal's more secure than Delta-Chat that's not even forward secret, that isn't audited, and that's using 30 year old PGP.

is Wire still around and does somebody know if it's good? I remember reading about it because it used Haskell but I never tried it out.

They can't even be bothered to do 2FA

Which messenger apps can be bothered to do 2FA?

Signal requires a PIN and an SMS code. WhatsApp has the option to add a password in addition to the SMS code. There are probably others.

I used it and found it excellent, fully featured (chat/voice/video), use phone or email as identifier, and supported on all devices (iOS, Android, Mac, Win, Linux).

I don't understand why it didn't take off - seems like a modern version of Betamax/VHS to me.

Wouldn't XMPP fit the bill?

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