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Comment by ketzo | Hacker News Reader

If you're reading this, there's a pretty solid chance that you're a male working in the software industry.

It is super, super critical for you to know: this happens where you work, too.

No, not "this could happen where you work." I'm telling you that if you work with women in engineering, they deal with this shit anywhere from weekly to hourly.

It comes from "the nice manager," from a QA on another team, from a tech lead, from a customer.

Misogyny and harassment are happening around you, and you need to be looking for it.

If your first thought upon reading this was "well, I'm just glad that could never happen here," you are wrong, and you need to be on your guard.

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This take is a little too extreme, it is one you see a lot on the internet, but if you talk to actual women in the industry there are much more varied experiences. Some don’t perceive any problems at all, others do but consider it minor, others are depressed and angry as hell.

> it is one you see a lot on the internet, but if you talk to actual women in the industry

You seem to imply that women on the internet are not actually in the industry? Not sure what you're saying here, unless you mean IRL, in which case,

it is likely that women are not as comfortable talking IRL to men about these issues as they are online. I'm not a woman, but I sure am more comfortable discussing these things online. Seems like it would go both ways.

> Some don’t perceive any problems at all,

A person's perception or lack thereof of a problem does not mean that the problem does not exist. Millions or billions of people are discriminated against every day without knowing it in the moment, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen or cause harm.

This is an overgeneralization.

My girlfriend works at a woman-led software company, where most of the people on her team are women, and from her description, that type of shit just doesn't fly there. It is her first time working at a company where this is the case, and she's loads happier.

For whatever it's worth, she landed her current role by attending some local "women in tech" meetups for a few months, and a woman she met from there was hiring.

I think it's important for any women reading this thread to know that software companies do exist where women are treated fairly, and it might be worthwhile to seek out those companies.

I'm pretty certain there's no Cosby room at my employer's offices

I'm also certain no-one has committed suicide due to sexual harassment by the company's employees

misogyny in tech is an innate, intractable problem that is literally impossible to solve? why would any woman work with any nonzero number of men in tech, then? I changed my career trajectory when I realized the video game industry wasn't a fit for me in terms of politics, work-family balance, and (to a lesser extent) religion... if this problem is truly unsolvable and endemic to software development, shouldn't women, looking out for their best interests, pursue other fields of work?

(note that I don't actually believe this supposition, I'm just following it to the logical conclusion.)

The OP said nothing about it being " an innate, intractable problem that is literally impossible to solve"

OP made unabashedly broad claims about an entire generalized industry, saying something happens everywhere, yes even at your company where you think everything is fine and there's no problems, yes, it happens there too. this implies that literally every measure possible taken at every possible corporation in the entire broad field of "software" continues to be ineffective at solving these problems, and that we must be aware of this. OP went out of their way to both leave no room for nuance in this assertion and to provide zero solutions or ideas for solutions for solving this problem, and implied that it was endemic to women working together with men (in software, I guess). what other possible alternative interpretation is there?

> this implies that literally every measure possible taken at every possible corporation in the entire broad field of "software" continues to be ineffective at solving these problems

OP did not imply that; read their comment again, you will note that they actually stated the opposite of your accusation quite clearly. That there is more work to do (their point) directly contradicts your assumptions.

> implied that it was endemic to women working together with men....what other possible alternative interpretation is there?

The only interpretation of OP that I can see is that there exists a problem and that being aware of the problem existing is a key factor in solving it.

I have no idea where you got these ideas from in OP's comment, I read quite the opposite from it actually.

I don't see how you read "this happens where you work" any differently

You don't see the difference between pervasive and intractable?

you don't see the difference between pervasive and literally in every single workplace of a given profession?

Pervasive means present or noticeable in every part of a thing or place.[1]

[1] https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pervasiv...

the basic idea that anything could be literally, explicitly 100% "pervasive" at literally every place in the entire world regardless of culture is so far beyond ridiculous it's nowhere even near entertaining, and the sheer delusion in making such a statement, including explicitly doubling down on any chance of doubt or wiggle room, is so far beyond the pale that it's just plain silly, and can only be made by someone who has minimal life experience and is extrapolating said limited life experience to the whole world

> Misogyny and harassment are happening around you, and you need to be looking for it.

I disagree.

You should be reporting it if you witness it, but not actively LOOKING for it.

It's not my job, nor yours, to go actively LOOKING for these problems. It is my job, however, to report them should I see them happening. That's just common sense.

I think this is a pretty unhelpful response which tends to diminish the gravity of serious allegations. I don't claim to work in a perfectly enlightened place where nobody ever faces harassment, but I'm confident "the nice manager" at my company has never harassed a coworker to the point of suicide and I've seen people get fired for isolated incidents of behavior which the lawsuit describes as pervasive and routine. If you're working for a company where this conduct could happen, you should try to find a better one; if you're building a company, you have a strong but achievable obligation to ensure it couldn't happen.

You might want to reread the article. It isn't about harassment or misogyny from individuals. It's about a corporate culture and leadership that allegedly encouraged the same.

I believe that the leadership team doesn't encourage sexual harassment where I work. I know that people get fired for harassing others.

Maybe I'm naive and all the CEOs at all the tech companies encourage their subordinates to harass women. Or maybe you just need to get another job, at a place that doesn't suck. Or maybe you just need to read the article.

I actually think this is much more prevalent in the US and probably even concentrated at their west coast around silicon valley. Not exclusively though, but even in this case at Activision. How many employees are involved and how many do they have?

I think summoning a threat everywhere is keeping more women out of tech than cases were sexual misconduct actually did happen.

I’ll care when women worry about misandry.

But insisting I care while women engage in illegal sexism for their own benefit is an abusive, one-sided relationship.

Study after study confirms that women are preferentially hired and receive privilege in education. Study after study shows women dominated fields like HR and education are incredibly sexist. Women are allowed to organize on the basis of sex for more sexist privilege at most universities and businesses. Ask any man who has worked in a majority female department if lewd comments, inappropriate pictures, etc happen there.

When women do their part to end sexism, I’ll care.

Until then, it’s just entitled whining.

There’s never been a female President and almost every single CEO in the country is a man but HR is mostly women so it’s equal right?

CEO positions tend to be filled by the most highly competitive personality types. People willing to sacrifice most of their life to attain a single goal.

Perhaps women tend to choose to lead more balanced lives because they find it more rewarding and meaningful.

Why more men are CEOs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbH0Q39JCPk

Humans are incredibly varied and I don't doubt there are highly dedicated, passionate women sacrificing most of their life to attain singular goals. That's why there are enough women to have an entire women's league of most professional sports. If it were true that women tend to choose to lead more balanced lives to the point where entire leadership positions are almost completely bereft of women, there would be no female professional athletes, and certainly not enough to have leagues and teams of them. There would be no female dancers, and especially no female ballerinas.

I'm very confused by this argument.

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