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This is an article about finds from Doggerland, not an article about your favourite flood mono-myth theory, hence a comprehensive discussion of global floods and associated myths is really out of scope and that's why it's not in the article. No confusion required.

We have no reason whatever to link the Atlantis story and the Noah's Flood story the way you do. Not all stories about floods have to be about the same flood. Individual flood myths may well be legitimate oral history, but therefore Atlantis is a non sequitur.

As it happens we do have evidence that oral history can persist stories about events across tens of thousands of years. However we also know that floods are a very common phenomenon for unrelated reasons all over the world even now.

Not so much a non sequitur as an abductive reasoning; your parent post has inferred prehistoric flood as best explanation for Atlantis myth.

A flood may well be the best explanation for the Atlantis myth, a flood may also be the best explanation for the Noah/Utnapishtim myth. However since we know of many prehistoric floods, it's pure speculation to arbitrarily link them both to the same flood event.

There was only one flood event that affected the entire world, simultaneously, permanently inundating millions of square miles and displacing people who had lived on those millions of square miles for tens of millennia.

It was identically the the same flood event that sank Doggerland. Whether and which legends may be proven to trace to it are of overwhelmingly less moment than the global and indisputable fact of its occurrence, and its impact on ancestors of every person alive today.

Fear of being accused of promoting Atlantis historicity blocks progress in archaeology rather as much as the inaccessibility of the inundated sites.

> There was only one flood event that affected the entire world, simultaneously, permanently inundating millions of square miles and displacing people who had lived on those millions of square miles for tens of millennia.

Do you have sourcing for this, or somewhere I can follow up on the idea? I'm familiar with the idea of there being a single event for many of the flood stories of Mediterranean area, but not so much the world, or the evidence of it, and it's and interesting idea.

[1], particularly "Past Changes", and [2], showing the actual sea level vs. time over 24ky. The Younger Dryas period coincides with the rise from 78 M to 65 M below present sea level. The rise from ~15kya to ~14kya, "Meltwater Pulse 1A", was more dramatic, from 110 M to 80 M below.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_level_rise

[2] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Po...

Current sources [0] put the (final) flooding of Doggerland as late as 6500–6200 BCE (based, in part, upon the dating of archaeological finds from the region) — which is much later than the Younger Dryas — with suggestions that its submergence may be connected with the Storegga Slide (a big coastal landslide off of Norway).

Of course this doesn't necessarily discount the possibility of some earlier flooding event which may have had global impact — but it does rather imply that it wasn't a- or the- global flooding event that caused the final demise of the low lying lands that made up Doggerland.

On the topic of the end of the Youger Dryas period, these links may also be of interest to a neophyte scholar of that topic: YD overview [1], YD impact hypothesis [2].

The YD impact hypothesis has historically been somewhat contentious — as [2] notes in its criticism section — but there is some interesting modern research into the topic, which seems to support the hypothesis. Although it is the subject of ongoing dispute, claims and counterclaims.

Antonio Zamora [3] has been producing original research, some papers, a book (which I've not read), and a whole set of ongoing videos on the topic [4] — many of which focus upon the origin of the Carolina Bays (and similarly: the Nebraska Bays), which he claims are likely caused by debris from a comet impact on the Laurentide Ice Sheet, ~12.9kya.

See also the work of Richard Firestone — search for 'Richard Firestone comet' to find his paper, criticisms of it, and some responses from him.

Being British, and somewhat interested in Neolithic archaeology, I find the history of Doggerland to be quite fascinating — it has also been the topic of a Time Team episode, which is worth a watch ("Britain's Stone Age Tsunami" and/or "Britain's Drowned World" - can likely be found online somewhere?).

But I also find the Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis to be quite a fascinating topic also — in part because it is somewhat on the fringe of our current understanding and knowledge, whilst perhaps not being fringe science per se. YMMV, obvs ;) — But clearly that period was kinda the start of our 'modern' known history, being roughly the start of agriculture (see the Fertile Crescent, Gobekli Tepe, etc.), the Neolithic ('new stone') age, etc., and also approximately coincides with the die-off of the megafauna and the Clovis culture. It was clearly a period of some truly great changes, across the globe.

On that topic — YD, and the YD impact hypothesis — one may or may not find the work of Randall Carlson [5] to be of interest. He has much to say on this matter, but oftentimes some of his timelines and dating may be questionable (e.g. some of his flood hypothesis tales don't tally with work of geologists such as Nick Zentner — who has some truly excellent geology lecture videos on YouTube [6], if that's your bag — he is truly engaging, informative and funny).

Carlson also discusses various other esoteric topics, including mythology, symbolism and ancient mysteries, which some might claim otherwise weaken the views he expresses. But personally I quite like the guy, and all of his subject matters.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesi...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Zamora

[4] https://www.youtube.com/c/AntonioZamora-Carolina-Bays

[5] https://www.youtube.com/c/TheRandallCarlson/videos

[6] https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=nick+zentner

Doggerland, like other lands cited, progressively disappeared beneath the waves over centuries and millennia. When each bit was lost depends on its altitude, so the curve of sea depth in the graph over 24ky does not match the rate that any particular area disappeared.

The Younger Dryas was a period in the middle of the process. The timeline of the Impact Hypothesis places the strike at its beginning, resulting in a huge meltwater pulse that disrupted the Atlantic Ocean current system. The first Gobekli Tepe was built precisely at its end, but no coinciding geophysical event has been identified.

Current work suggests the impact causing the Carolina and Nebraska bays occurred much less recently, maybe 600kya.

My impression of the history of the "Noah's flood" story is that mythologists tend to trace it back to the origin of civilization in the fertile crescent, a historic flood plain.

Specifically, there are very strong parallels between it and the Gilgamesh flood myth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth

That doesn't account for the fact that nearly every major culture and region on earth has a flood myth.

Curious if we know for sure that every culture doesn't descend in part from inhabitants of the fertile crescent.

Humans first arrived in east Asia 2.1 million years ago, and modern humans arrived there at least 80,000 years ago. The fertile crescent civilization formed about 11,000 years ago, and some flood accounts, as well as some geological evidence, date the floods at about 12,000 years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup#/media/File:Human_m...

The modern humans that went to Asia largely stuck to the cost, and started on that route some millennia earlier than the modern humans that settled the Levant. Pre modern humans took that route far earlier, and there's growing evidence our ancestor and cousin species preceded them on it.

The reason for that is banal: the vast majority of humans chose to live near a water source, if not the coast. That's still true today, but was overwhelmingly true in prehistoric times.

Gilgamesh or Noah’s flood could also be related to the Black Sea deluge hypothesis [1] though the existence and scale of that event is still being debated. On the other side of the planet and more established as fact are the Missoula floods [2] across what is now the Columbia River Gorge.

Altogether, it does not surprise me that tales of great floods appear in cultures across the world. It could well be that they relate to different geological events around the world.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_floods

I live in the Purcell trench...where the Missoula floods passed through :)

You can clearly see in some areas where the smaller hills and mountains kinda look like "islands" and we have a very nice aquifer due to it.

And yes...supposedly the native tribes which were in the path all the way down the Columbia have stories about it.

https://www.spokaneaquifer.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Aq...

Any that were actually in the path washed out to sea. But anybody within hundreds of miles would have heard it.

The Columbia River Gorge was carved out in two weeks.

> The Columbia River Gorge was carved out in two weeks.

This seemed interesting, so I looked into it, and I'm seeing multiple sources saying it was many floods over a few millennia (with one large initial one from Lake Missoula).

About 1800 years ago, the Columbia Basin became flooded when an ice dam broke at Lake MIssoula in Western Montana. This lake help approximately 600 cubic miles of water. Boulders were tossed around the outlet of the break. Others were carried in icebergs as far as Western Oregon towards the Pacific Ocean. The water flowed at appoximately 60mph. It is believed that it took 2-3 days for this water to drain.

During a period of 2500 years, there were believed to be as many as 100 floods that scoured the Gorge area. These were some of the largest documented floods occuring on the planet and in geological history.[1]

The 1800 is likely supposed to be 18,000 years ago, as this other link says essentially the same thing but at the time brame of 18,000 - 15,000 years ago.[2]

That said, neither source their facts well, so it's not out of the question that one is using the other or they are using some other source, and they are wrong and referencing wrong information in a chain, so I would consider a reputable source one way or the other as more definitive.

1: http://www.gorgeconnection.com/how-the-gorge-was-formed.php

2: https://www.pdxmonthly.com/travel-and-outdoors/2012/05/gorge...

The one person who logged the most time, effort, and miles studying the Scablands considered the evidence to best support a single event, but was stymied identifying a source for enough water. He was ridiculed by other geologists for many decades, and pushed to accept the less catastrophist interpretation of multiple floods before he was, finally, awarded Geology's highest prize--after all of his opponents had died.

Recent evidence suggests a meteor or comet strike in the Canadian ice sheet, at start of the 1200-year Younger Dryas cold spell, that could have melted enough water, and appears responsible also for the simultaneous extinction of 32+ genera of large North American mammals (including camels, horses, dire wolves, saber-tooth cats, cheetahs, giant sloths, mastodons and mammoths), as well as the Clovis culture, at the same instant, and the Younger Dryas itself.

That evidence includes shocked minerals and a platinum abundance spike found in the correct layer of the Greenland ice sheet, and in earth at sites throughout North America and as far afield as Syria and South Africa.

There was also Lake Agassiz[1] in central North America. An ice sheet collapse in the northeast may have caused a sudden drainage of the lake leading to an estimated 0.8-2.8 meter rise in ocean levels worldwide. It's also believed this dramatic outpouring of freshwater altered the Atlantic ocean currents and caused a climate cooling event about 8,200 years ago[2].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Agassiz

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.2-kiloyear_event

The Noah story is very obviously cribbed from Utnapishtim. But that takes us back only 6000 years.The seas started rising 20kya, with bursts in periods up to 8kya, when the Persian gulf river valley finally filled in.

The Flood was a worldwide series of events throughout that time. The Fertile Crescent has been important for barely the last 13,000.

Really.

It's "extremely odd" that an article about actual scientific findings in Doggerland doesn't talk about the rest of the world and then devolve into a stream of consciousness about Atlantis, Noah and oral Aboriginal history?

This is the science of archaeology and the people who do it don't nearly care as much about Atlantis as you.

I think that's a bit more dismissive than called for. I don't think Atlantis was being used so it could be pointed to as being true and about some amazing ancient civilization as much as evidence of "yet another flood myth", and how that related to ancient historical events.

As it was presented that has it's own problems, which I think were adequately pointed out by others (namely that many ancient myths about floods do not necessarily point towards the same event), but it's not nearly as bad as I think your (apparently?) knee-jerk reaction to Atlantis may have led you to assume.

It is odd specifically because the inundation of Doggerland and of those other, overwhelmingly larger areas were identically the same event.

Science is an integrative activity. It matters that the same phenomenon describes an apple's fall and the moon's orbit. It matters that the Morning Star and the Evening Star are both Venus. It matters that light, radio, x-rays and radiated heat are all electromagnetic waves that propagate at a fixed rate. It matters that electromagnetics, the nuclear strong force, and the nuclear weak force trace to the same root. It matters that polar and rectangular coordinate systems, and wave propagation and exponential growth and decay, are all concisely related via exponentiation of the base of the natural logarithm.

It probably matters that Mesopotamian and Indus river valley civilizations arose at the same time.

"Atlantis" is just a name for a wholly plausible phenomenon that, if something like it existed, could be found with enough investigation. Fear of a name is not science. Excoriating people for wanting to see evidence sought for is the antithesis of science.

Yep. It's hard to wrap your head across the fact just how small human populations used to be, and how slowly things changed. For the vast majority of our species history, people in tint populations lived the exact same way for thousands of years without any change or technological progress.

Contrast it to the present. A random city has millions of inhabitants and your entire life often changes overnight.

> Sundaland is now sea between Indonesian islands, reaching up along Vietnam and out to Taiwan (thus not an island), all the way up to Korea (thus not a peninsula).

Err, no. Sundaland only refers to the area south of Indochina. The northern limit is at approximately 9'N according to Wikipedia.

Northern Vietnam, Taiwan, Korea, and even Japan were connected to mainland China during the last ice age, but none of them except the southern tip of Vietnam had anything to do with Sundaland.

It was all connected land. Any division from what was coastal Asia is a matter of convention, akin to insisting that Europe and Asia are legitimately two continents.