Caffeine and theanine exert opposite effects on attention (2017)

I've recently switched over to green tea and really wish I had earlier.

Interesting. As a Chinese I used to drink tea but years ago I switched to coffee for better flavour. Maybe I should try milk tea instead.

I’m addicted to matcha. Just so happens to have high levels or l-theanine.

> A while back, I noticed that 'chai' helps me focus and relax (improved mood, less anxiety, etc.) at the same time. It's made of milk, black tea, cardamom, cinnamon, and negligible/no sugar (personal preference).

I know Starbucks et al market the above as 'chai', but I think 'masala' (as in 'masala chai' [1]) should be the keyword.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masala_chai

> It's made of milk, black tea, cardamom, cinnamon, and negligible/no sugar

Maybe you mean no added sugar? Milk has 1.5g of sugar / oz (about half that of orange juice, as a comparison).

to keep it DRY: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27916094

Interesting. My anecdotal experience with modafinil is that I get extreme anxiety and elevated heart rate without any additional focus benefits. In fact, it detriments my ability to focus.

Adderall on the other hand, while stimulating and euphoric, gets the job done. But it works so well that I have trouble focusing without it now. I’ve tried tapering off multiple times but always go back to it when my work quality suffers and I’m not contributing to tasks that my team needs done.

Do you have a site you use to purchase your modafinil? And how did you decide dosage?

EDIT... and it looks like this is a controlled substance. I didnt know

I'm sure it's primarily because caffeine and theanine are culturally accepted and available cheaply over-the-counter. Modafinil is prescription-only (at least in the US), and speed/amphetamines are likewise illegal.

Instead of asking your doctor for psychoactive drugs or delving through the dark corners of the internet or dark corners of downtown alleys, you can get caffeine at Walgreens or Starbucks.

> I'm surprised modafinil isn't no. 1

Someone shared modafinil with me once. The effect is crazy.

As you say, it lets you focus on single task for quite a long time, without feeling tired. And I'm saying it as a person who can be easily distracted.

I never tried it again, not to mess with my brain.

-afanils don't work for everyone. Modafinil makes me both jittery and tired, and I can't focus for more than a minute; kind of like I'm badly jet lagged and just need to pass out.

re. Modafinil, I heard it mentioned by a reputable programmer on twitter and decided to try it. I used it regularly for several years, and it was extremely useful in helping with focus and staying on task. I feel like it helped me in a breakthrough phase of my career. The problem I found was that I could only tolerate it 2-3 times per week over the long term. Any more than that, and the edgy/anxious/irritable side effects would build up to intolerable levels. Not to mention I was buying from questionable sources online, figuring it would be too difficult to talk a doctor into prescribing me some.

Eventually though I worried about the quality of the batched I was getting online and stopped taking it altogether. But I still really struggled with focus on a daily basis and started to wonder if what I was really doing was self medicating for undiagnosed ADHD. Thinking back on my life it did sort of fit. Though I am a "successful" developer and I'm doing fairly well at life, it has always felt like I had to struggle and fight a lot more than the average person just go get through the day and stay on task. So I talked to a doctor, tried ritalin and adderall and have settled on a low dose adderall routine that really works for me. It helps tremendously with focus and motivation, and if I am diligent about maintaining a good diet/exercise/sleep schedule, the side effects are very manageable with daily use. I still think about the modafinil days, because those were good times, and it was fun to have that all day I'm on fire feeling. Adderall is nice, but I can tell that if I upped my dose to get into the realm of intense focus that Modafinil used to give me, I would also be getting pretty "high" and the comedown side effects would probably be more unpleasant.

The nootropics community is usually more about substances with reliable effects across the whole spectrum of neural fauna. Modafinil has side effects that are really bad for productivity in a substantial percent of the population, like it doesn't work or it's really bad for some people with GAD or OCD and people prone to addiction or with ASD.

I'm not a proponent of having drugs be "prescription only", people should be allowed to eat what they want if they don't harm anyone else... but I personally put Modafinil under my list of stuff that you probably may need some help with if you want to try it.

My problem with Moda/Armoda is that I feel like a tweaker when I'm on it, and I only take enough to get an effect. I get sweaty, physically stressed, and just generally feel like I'm taking something that is not in my body's best interests. I have to drink liters of water to avoid a headache. I also have noticed some of the dopamine effects(increased risk taking and addictive behaviors). I'm slightly bipolar though(type II, pretty mild) so maybe it's just not for people like me.

It does work pretty well for focus though, and is really nice for my middle-aged brain which often is tired throughout the day.

Have you tried Dexedrine? It’s the right handed enantiomer of adderall which has less pronounced effects on heart rate, etc.

If consumed dissolved in a liquid on an empty stomach, it can be absorbed rather quickly.

I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're getting at, but, in the anti-inflammatory category, glucosamine and aspirin are both great, and have some pretty good science behind them.

Nope, nothing else. I have been heavily relying on yerba mate -- one sip or tiny cup works wonders during heavy tree planting sessions. This has always been my secret weapon, because, in contrast to coffee, it doesn't seem to cause a feeling of fluid loss.

Also, during tree planting, I only occasionally eat a few carrots or other vegetables to help me finish the day. After that, a well-deserved meal will follow.

Disclaimer, though: I have experimented with intermittent fasting for several years, so I suppose my body has already adapted to long periods of hunger. Be careful with this stuff, though, and don't listen to my silly advice.

Exactly, i find mental work close to impossible a few days after quitting caffeine. I can do social stuff to an extend and get manual labor stuff done, but not anything requiring initiative and self discipline.

> Do you think doing a job involving more physical than mental labor made it easier to get through the withdrawal?

Very probably, yes. IIRC, I have actually tried quitting yerba/coffee a few times earlier as well while doing mostly mental work. And I always failed. Currently my days in the forest consist of several 1.5h brush cutting sessions -- meaning, during that time, I am in nonstop movement, cutting the brush, unable to do anything else. During a break between the sessions, I am usually heavily dehydrated, so my body just wants a lot of water. I think I've even come to dislike the idea of having coffee or (really surprisingly) yerba mate at that point.

Currently I usually work 3x1.5h sessions every day, plus water drinking breaks and saw blade sharpening, so it's around 5-6 hours in the woods every day. And, in the forest you have no coffee shops, no other shops, no fridges. And, if you manage not to take coffee with you, there's simply no coffee at all nearby! I suppose that's the essential part of the whole trick.

I plan to return to mental work for the winter. I do think staying off yerba/coffee will be a struggle again for indoor work and/or cold season.

You don't have to quit caffeine cold turkey. You can just ramp down from n cups of coffee/day to 1 cup, then switch to n cups of tea/day (black or green) and ramp down to 1 cup, then switch to low-caffeine or caffeine-free tea, then stop entirely.

Have been off caffeine for several years now. Took probably a couple months to reach a point where I felt comfortable going into an interview or important meeting without it. Now I don't miss it at all, but if I ever do have it, a cup of decaf coffee will have me buzzing for hours, and an espresso will make me extremely uncomfortable and jittery - crazy that that used to be my baseline intake.

Not the person you asked but: absolutely yeah.

Coding and other such mental work is very tough for me unless a lot of factors line up. But I can stay focused on physical tasks even if I'm feeling like garbage - even something like tennis that's both mental+physical.

edit: Are you talking about sudden "cold turkey" quitting + the subsequent withdrawal? The answer to that is hell no -- if I try anything that foolish I'm really in for some hurt. Luckily as others have noted, there's no need to experience withdrawal if you taper dosage down over a week or two.

Sadly this is the truth. It's all about perceived work and not actual work.

I wish I could nap. For me, a nap turns one normal day into two short days - a bright productive one and a dark groggy one. I've even tried the coffee-then-20-minute-nap method to no avail.

First time hearing of 996, for anyone else curious that's a 9am-9pm 6 days a week work schedule.

You mean you're not in a giant open office? Nice.

Agreed; in fact, it makes two points that have different impact:

> Consumed together, caffeine and theanine exert similar cognitive effects to that of caffeine alone, but exert opposite effects on arousal, in that caffeine accentuates and theanine mitigates physiological and felt stress responses.

This is inline with the anecdotal evidence about theanine's mitigating effect on caffeine & stress.

Almost skipped an otherwise interesting topic because of this.

I'm still able to edit the title: care to suggest another version that fits within 80 chars? The title alone fits, one char to spare, but I didn't want to pass off a 4-y.o. paper as if it was pharmacological news.

I understood "arousal" to be the emotional sort of arousal, but I see your point.

I haven't really. I switched to Oatmilk, because I was getting stomach cramps about once a month. Still haven't figured out if the milk was causing it, because it happened again after the switch. Maybe its something in the coffee, maybe the pesticides they use or maybe I don't clean the coffee machine frequently enough. I drink as many as 5 cups in day. So I'm might have a bit of a problem.

Oat milk has more carbs than the rest of the alt (?) milks, and sometimes more than cow. Def could be the reason for feeling better.

Oat milk has added vegetable oils like sunflower, which have higher amounts of unsaturated fats i think. Someone mentioned coconut oil, which is high in satarated fat, could make a difference.

In your experience, what is the brand with the least bitter powder?

The Italians in your office would have wanted espresso!

That's actually an interesting point, we're generally talking about coffee as if it's all the same, but I see people here talking about instant grounds, drip coffee and then there is espresso, I'm sure they all work out quite different. If you're used to grinding your own beans you'll know different beans have different caffeine amounts, and different extraction methods all have different yields.

Where I am it's all espresso, thanks to Italian immigrants bringing over stovetop espresso kettles in the 40s and jumpstarting our now incumbent coffee culture. I've never even seen a drip coffee machine, it's espresso machines in petrol stations, offices, cafes, restaurants, people's homes.

If I pull an espresso shot for too long it's going to have more caffeine in it than had it pulled really quickly, even though it's the same amount of coffee/water solution in the cup. So one person's four cups a day is rarely going to match another persons four cups a day. I'm sure it's the same for instant coffee brands or grinds too, when you take it all into consideration it's going to be hard to know what caffeine intake anyone has.

I don't like watery coffee, so I mix mine 2/3 decaf. I have 4-5 cups throughout the morning. It keeps it a nice, even caffeine hit.

I find it gets cold fast. Do you have a heated mug? Suggestions?

Can you drink cola without adverse effects?

Because I can. And coffee gives me issues after a week or two.

Therefore something seems wrong about giving caffeine all the blame.

Black tea is also very high in l-theanine. Regular green tea is not, but matcha (which you consume) is as well.

You might have adhd. I fall into extremely high doses because a high level of stimulant use is needed to get to a “normal” baseline.

Of course tolerance is also a factor. I’ve been reducing my intake, for a while it was well over 1g/day, and that wasn’t really about trying to “feel” anything.

>I wish caffeine made me feel anything.

(intentionally NOT quoting the remainder of your post)

The only time I ever felt anything from caffine:

I was working the midnight shift. (At a service industry job, there were no customers so it was dead.)

I took:

  2 caffeine pills
  4 coffee's
  2 cans of coke

It worked. I was very jittery, and had the shakes. But I survived the shift, and by the time the shift was over (7am) the sun was up, and I had a 1 hour drive to get home.

I was also surprised to learn while driving Truck, that some US States outlawed caffeine pills. (Ohio) It might have been available at a drug store though, I only had access to truck stops.

Taurine and GABA synergize similarly with caffeine.

Source? If this is true, it would explain a lot for me!

I typically grab whatever is reasonably priced. Right now I have the NOW branded 100mg capsules. I avoid the larger dosages for reasons mentioned in sibling comments.

AFAIK it is not one of the supplements which requires careful brand selection (like a magnesium supplement).

Some people, myself included, prefer the taste of coffee, though. So if I can just add some flavorless theanine and get some nice cognitive effects out of the deal, that's great.

Yeah, but people aren't actually that interested in the scientific method here. Criticizing things is an easy way to appear smart, and that's the main point.

Empirical research has never been about some true/false binary; that's a myth perpetuated on HN. It has always been about strength of evidence, improving models, and opening paths for future research. I've seen people dismiss case studies by decrying that their n=1, for god's sake.

L-Theanine is somewhat sweet and... chalky, perhaps. It's a little savory/funky too. Not altogether an unpleasant flavour. I occasionally take a teaspoon of unpacked L-Theanine powder and stir it into a glass of water. It doesn't mix very readily, but once it does, it's barely noticeable (at least to my palate). I don't notice it when I repeat this process with green or black tea, so I would be surprised if anyone could detect it in coffee.

Although slightly higher in cost, you can get Theanine in pill form.

It doesn’t really taste like anything. Biggest thing is that you need to stir it quite a bit more than something like sugar to get it mixed

Theanine is supposed to help with sleep too

No. I've taken melatonin in the past and I don't know if it worked or it was just placebo because I changed also some habits like not going to bed with my tablet to watch Youtube. After taking the pill I didn't stare at any screen and I kept the lights as low as possible to help my body produce more melatonin.

Some "rituals" before sleeping are helpful too, like turning every thing off and drinking a cup of linden tea or valerian tea and then going to bed. Even a rooibos or anything without caffeine works, the important part is the ritual where you relax and prepare your body for the night.

In addition to that I found out that a little bit of intensive workout helps a lot. You don't need a 10km run or to light weights for 2 hours. Just put some tension into your body. You can't do a push up? Do half and stay there hanging with some tension on your muscles. Stretch your body until you feel the burn for a while, specially legs and back. There are some yoga posses where you stretch and also use your strength and they don't require any experience. And of course, don't hurt yourself doing more than what your body can take.

L-theanine is readily available in supplement form in the US (e.g. $6 for a bottle of 100 pills). I don't take it regularly but that's mostly because I haven't examined the evidence carefully.

Probably supplements. Be careful about what you buy though, internet is full of random "made in china" supplements containing god knows what

It comes in natural things like mushrooms / green tea, but its also synthesized in capsules / powder / products like neurogum.

I don't follow your reasoning. Worse at what precisely?

With the caveat that I am sure it doesn’t matter, Puritan’s Pride 200mg

That's such a great idea... I've done this with cigarettes and I've had similar thoughts about how I no longer enjoy coffee either.

I was asking more in the general case for coffee.

I mean, I know basically how many beers will get me drunk and am well aware of the times I drink. Coffee, though? I read tons of folks saying it affects them... But it feels similar to the folks saying vitamin d improved their life. I am not claiming they are false, but I am claiming I don't feel it.

Fine? I have apnea, so that dominates any sleep concerns I have. But, I've never used an alarm clock in my life and I can still reliably wake up on time every day.

I have little doubt that pure caffeine would impact me. My question is on the rush from coffee. To me, it is just a tasty drink. I don't feel more awake after it. At all.

Caffeine alone. I should probably give it a try without caffeine, and probably take a T-break on the caffeine too. But I'm not sure I have the motivation to do that.

Could you talk more about what your acid reflux was like? I'm curious about finding new ways to treat my own. Been on 20-40mg of (es)omeprazole daily for a decade.

Has anyone actually read the paper? I hit a paywall.

And the abstract doesn't even give enough information to describe what they actually found. It gives p-values, but not effect sizes.

Alarm bells? I’m not sure I follow. What’s “this” kind of paper? Their methods seem rational. Many references on previous research are mentioned. Do you think we’re being gaslighted or something?

I wouldn’t use this paper to make life decisions on my mental health or assume theanine will give me super powers, but that’s with all research. Nothing exists in a vacuum and shouldn’t be interpreted that way. Overall, I’d say this is potentially interesting for someone researching these chemicals.