Taking away Indians' freedoms, brutalizing minorities, upending the rule of law, promoting corruption ... I don't believe for a moment that Modi's policies are 'best'. India did very well under Congress before his election.
Whether the bad parts should be tolerated because of the good parts it's another matter (and given the things you're listed, I personally don't care about what good policies you do if that's the price to pay). that said we must be able to talk about policies and outcomes it their own right without tainting them with who has brought them.
I disagree. First, these are policies. Second, I don't care about the other policies unless human rights, including freedom and self-determination (democracy) are maintained.
I think you don't really disagree, because disagreeing would mean that once somebody does something against human rights, everything else they touch must be also bad by definition, thus depriving all future generations of the possibility of doing something good just because they accidentally mentioned it? When it's claimed that Mussolini made run trains on time (which it's very likely a myth, but it doesn't matter for this argument), does it mean that having trains that run on time is a bad idea that can no longer be pursued least we associate ourselves with fascism? That would clearly be silly.
what on earth is this argument? to simplify this for you: if you deprive a subset of your population human rights and freedoms and allow a different subset to benefit from that injustice, it isn't a net good - it's supremacist.
Let me try again: Mr X invents the lightbulb, then kills his wife. I'm not saying Mr X invention of the lightbulb excuses him for having commited murder; I'm saying that the ligthbulb is a good invention despite the person who invented it and that other people can keep using it (while the inventor rots in jail).
This is an intentionally silly example because nobody sane will cancel a useful invention because of where it came from, but when we're talking about social policies they are often inextricably tainted by who proposed them and embraced them.
You're free to say "I don't care about this subtle point you're making because I'm so concerned about this freak depriving people of human rights that we don't have time to talk about this crap you're talking about". Fair enough. What I don't accept is that you're insinuating that I'm defending this kind of behaviour just because I'm making point you're not interested in.
Basic playbook for this kind of ruler is to dismantle democracy - and illegally spying on his opponents is the first step (to remove all opposition).
If it's pertinent, by all means bring it up - but you're just bringing up theoretical seems all a bit ivory tower.
One reason is that if you try to talk about the political catastrophes, people try to shut you down.
> could perhaps accidentally have stumbled upon a policy that could make sense
'but how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?'
> I'm not saying the opposite or otherwise supporting Modi.
So what do you say about Modi?
Oh that's easier to answer; there is thread above. TL;DR
The GP of my first comment said:
"the best policies are that of the government in power"
The parent answered:
"Taking away Indians' freedoms, brutalizing minorities,..."
I just said that it's a bit unfortunate that most of these discussions never really touch whether what GP said is true or false, i.e. whether the policies of the government are indeed best. Instead the answer points out how other policies are awful.
Now, I personally agree that those things listed are awful and I'd never support such political party.
But, logically, that is not an argument against what original GP said. I find it unfortunate that we are unable to talk about those things candidly.
In the India context, nationalism is a unifying force finding a commonality beyond the hundreds of diverse languages and cultures that India is made of.
I do not see why that is a bad thing.
You may think that, but the people of India think otherwise and that if why he has an overwhelming popularity.
When it comes to state elections the Modi government has been getting creamed because his subordinates at the state level are not as good as lying to people.
You skipped the key plank of nationalist Indian politics - religion. Who are the new Jews of India? The backstabbers of the nation?
As the recent PEW survey shows, a large percentage hold Hindu values and think of it as culturally superior.
Hinduism is also the culture of converted peoples, as the vast majority were coerced to convert.
Importing the experience of Europe into India is meaningless.
1. Jews were also German
2. Indian muslims don't think of Hinduism as culturally superior
3. The vast majority were not forced at all. There have been only very few events of this nature.
Conservatism, all over the world, follows the same methodology. Fake and fantasy made up "history", identification of the "other" that must be eliminated, innate sense of superiority of the in group that the state must enforce, innate belief in hierarchy with little sympathy for those at the bottom.
2. PEW research states that.
3. The vast majority of the Islamic and Christian conversion happened under Islamic and Christian colonial rule.
I guess the problems you are referring to is the hallmark of Christianity & Islam which preach for the wiping out of nonbelievers.
If anything must change it is the Bible and quaran.
1. Jews were German
2. False. PEW research doesn't state that
3. The vast majority of conversion from native animist and dravidian religions also happened under hindu rule. Same holds for Buddhism in India. Islamic rule was not colonial.
2. ....... a significant percentage of xtian/Muslims mention somewhere around 30%
3. Syrian Christians in India pre date Christianity in Europe, yet it was insignificant until colonization. Buddhism in my view is a subset of Hinduism.
Islamic rule involved massive destruction of heritage, universities, libraries, temples, tributes to Perssia and the Caliphate, genocides and impossition of Persian script and Arabic, imposition of jizya.
Congress, is corrupt to the T. Everyone had enough of these vampires. BJP was the only other viable national party. But I agree the situation is not ideal. I pity the residents of this country they are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
https://thewire.in/business/amit-shah-narendra-modi-jay-shah...
https://www.altnews.in/no-the-wire-didnt-apologise-in-the-ja... (since there are a few accounts on HN that spread fake news that is friendly towards the ruling party in India)
https://www.financialexpress.com/defence/france-begins-judic...
No, merely trying to explain why BJP was voted into power.
Again, my goal is not misdirection, if BJP/Modi did anything stupid they should face the music. To paint Rahul, his mommy as some innocent by standers of a hawkish regime makes me laugh.
What Sonia did to Narasimha Rao was enough for me, to judge what her character or lack of it is.
Stupid? How about brutal and oppressive to hundreds of millions (or the entire country). They clearly have.
> my goal is not misdirection
Then why are you talking about someone besides Modi?
Rao is one of the greatest prime ministers India has produced. He provided political cover to the liberalization policies that ended the Licence Raj in India (often attributed to Manmohan Singh alone). And this while running a minority government.
A brilliant man who was treated very badly by the Gandhis as well as the Congress party.
Worse than what modi did to Advani or his own wife? Sonia Gandhi entered after sitaram kesris exit, not narsimha raos.
I was very young when I saw (and still remember) Congress party goons setting fire to Sikh homes in New Delhi. I heard stories of how congress party workers in Delhi butchered countless Sikhs. Please note that I am not defending Modi in any way and I despise right wing fascism everywhere.
There are few redeeming things about Congress rule, but to call it very well run government is an exaggeration.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bholanath_and_Devendra_Pande...
I also dislike that we have to constantly add "we are not defending modi". It comes from their belief that the only ones who criticize Congress are hindutva nationalists bigots. As if congress did nothing to receive the ire of the people.
The BJP was built by the likes of Advani & Vajpayee many who were refugees of the Islamic partition of India, these are people who had built their own life from scratch.
Not to mention Modi the son of a tea seller, who rose to power on his own merit.
The BJP wins because it knows the grassroots where they come from, the congress and the left are elitist completely out of touch with reality.
That's why @mynameismon is very correct. When the Congress finally crashed in nineties, there was no contender even for an empty seat. Even Basu (a freaking totalitarian himself,) who almost got the seat, himself decided against at the last second.
Congress too was a very authoritarian party in the past, as much as almost everybody else in the political arena. Indian politics were very violent prior up until 200x. There were no "good" party.
If you have no credible, genuine opposition, you will not have a choice in between good, and bad, but in between bad, and bad.
Take a good look on Indian political landscape in post-independence history, and you will understand that India, though all its 74 years of independent existence never had anything coming as an alternative to the Congress, that wasn't as authoritarian as Congress:
— JD, and United Front were stillborn, putting literally nothing on the table other than not being the Congress. Radiagate, Ranjan Bhattacharya.... list goes on.
— In WB, Basu was ordering hit jobs on the opposition, and his own fellow commies almost weekly.
— "In the liberal South" they had constant Blue/Red, and Hindu/Tamil violence, because local parties had nothing but the same caste/religion/race cards the BJP plays today.
— Maharashtra politics — gangsterland. It was, and still is
Source please. I say this in spite of being severely critical of Basu.
I have no coverage of seventies, but bloody must it be if it was described "a step away from civil war," with Naxals, CPI, Congers, and armed East Bengal refugees engaging in a free for all deathmatch.
Eighties were not less violent. Marichjhapi Massacre was not a political violence per-se, but a violence on behalf of CPI nevertheless. Then, we know Bijon Setu massacre, repeated against other novelty groups, with CPI being prime suspect through their obstruction of investigations.
Mamata, and her entourage had their skulls crushed, as we all know. It was 100% a hit job to which the executor of the attack later admitted. https://images.newindianexpress.com/uploads/user/imagelibrar...
In recent memory, 2003 panchayat polls, a body count of 35 anti-communist activists alone.
Nandigram commotions 2007-2008 will amount to around 30.
https://www.mainstreamweekly.net/article2234.html
Sum all of this over his 23 years reign, and it will be way more than 100.
You may or may not agree but having lived through both I find that Modi regime (both at the state and the center) has seen not less, but more concentrated violence, not so much on political opponents, (Haren Pandya being a debatable case), but on minority citizens and citizens who have a different view.
[0] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10758216.2020.1...
[1] https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/democracy/reports/20...
This is either a pattern of grabbing media attention. Or its a symptom of an administration that has a single power center (Modi) and once his attention shifts, the policies and programs get ignored.
Neither of those two things does people any good.
Commonly cited as the reason for Indias economic decline along with demonetization.
> 2. Revamp of Farm and agricultural laws
There is no consensus that this is a good thing. Certainly not any good for farmers. Certainly very good for corporate farming, namely Ambani and Adani. Will the customers benefit? No idea!
> 3. Revamp of the Education policies in favour of a more progressive policy
??? Academic independence has been compromised. A 2000 crore pseudoscience ministry has been set up. Pseudoscience practitioners will now perform surgery. Indias top level research institutes are being granted generous funding for performing cow research. Texts praising Indian cows over Jersey cows are being distributed amongst school children, with claims of gold in Indian cows.
> 4. Promise of reforms of Land policies and of that ilk.
??
You are putting the cart before the horse.
And on top of that, looking around the world, there is no doubt what form of government correlates with good policy - power in the people's hands has by far the best record. And who can legitimately take it from us and impose their preferences on what the people want?