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Comment by anonytrary | Hacker News Reader

You can't successfully ban X and replace it with Y if Y does not have feature parity with X. Gas stoves are almost always better for cooking; they give you a more even heat distribution and it is easier to control the amount of heat the pan is getting at any time. Chefs love them.

Tangentially, I had the same complaint about paper straws when they started banning plastic straws. You are forced to drink fast, or you end up having a flimsy straw that can't suck, so you're forced to get another one. Bad alternative solution to plastic straws. Electric stoves are a less viable alternative to gas stoves, but they are definitely better than paper straws...

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Electric coil ranges are awful, yes - but have you tried a good induction range?

And electric ovens completely beat gas ovens.

My house came with some fancy-pants 48-inch gas oven+range unit from an Italian company whose name I can't pronounce - the cool (er... hot!) and unusual range-top features are nice and it is a good gas range, no-doubt, but the gas oven just lacks all the neat mod-cons and features you can only get with an electric oven, like better temperature regulation, self-cleaning, etc... While my friends and associates with induction ranges (especially the ones you don't see sold in Best Buy) won't stop talking about how great they are while I'm dealing with another stovetop flame-out, aieee.

A relative is a professional-ish cook; not a chef, but she writes Italian cook books and runs cooking classes from her home kitchen. She utterly loves her induction stove and finds it perfect for cooking Italian dishes.

I have a fairly high-end gas cooktop, dual electric ovens and a frickin' amazing Breville/PolyScience Control Freak induction burner. The Control Freak is considerably more precise than the gas cooktop. I have increasingly been using it in place of my sous vide setup, and the results have been excellent. I am a fan.

Right now, I wouldn't willingly give up any of them but, if I had to, I would cede the gas cooktop for the Breville induction burner, or, rather, several of them, or, better yet, a multi-burner induction cooktop of Breville quality.

The two biggest issues would be:

• Certain favorite pans of mine are not induction friendly, and…

• The extra electrical circuits that would need to be added as the Breville is power hungry

What I wouldn't give up are the electric ovens.

https://www.breville.com/us/en/products/commercial/cmc850.ht...

Good for her, but there's more to cuisine than Italian. Cantonese cooking in particular often requires wok hei, which in turn requires extreme temperatures/open flame, and rounded bottom woks don't work with flat induction cookers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wok#Wok_hei

This feels like saying no because of one very specific use case. I use a flat bottom wok on my electric stove almost every day. Adapt and you'll be fine.

Induction cooktops are wildly popular in China, perhaps more so than anywhere else in the world. This isn't to say that cooking with gas/open flame isn't also wildly popular, but the difficulty of using a wok with induction hasn't been an obstacle to adoption there. It helps that by no means do you need to take an all-or-nothing stance here: standalone countertop induction plates are effective and cheap (and far safer than the traditional hot plates that they resemble).

A typical home gas stove isn't even that good for wok cooking in the first place. I mean yeah it will work, of course, but it's nowhere near ideal. It's a little ridiculous that this thing it's not even that good at is the go-to defense of the gas stove. It's almost like if people who didn't like EVs always brought up cooking food on your engine.

1. typical home gas stoves in china are far more powerful than normally found in western home kitchens. they're closer to what you'd find in a restaurant kitchen in the west

2. little portable induction cookers are common in china but most people aren't doing stir fries on them. people use them for hot pot at home, and maybe to boil or steam things. they're not the primary cooktop of choice. also something that ties into all this is that eating out is vastly cheaper and more affordable in chinese cities, and even low wage earners in cities might do it for literally every normal meal. those restaurants aren't cooking on induction.

There are quite a few induction stoves made specifically for dome bottom woks. They heat up incredibly fast, and can be lifted up out of the field and used pretty much exactly like a gas stove.

You can approximate wok hei with a cooking blow torch, as theorized/discovered by Kenji Lopez-Alt (summary write-up / experimentation by one of his colleague here : https://www.seriouseats.com/hei-now-youre-a-wok-star-a-fiery... )

Induction wok burners are a thing, here is a comparison between a 5000W induction wok burner and a gas wok burner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQVDSdW-dPU (look at the description for english description) If you trust their results, induction burners produces much less waste heat compared to gas burners, which makes home indoor Chinese food cooking more feasible

Gas range and electric oven is the sweet spot.

I bought an induction stove 5 years ago. I cook 3-5 times a week and I love it. I will never go back to gas stoves. At this point, I see them as a fire hazard.

Can induction stoves just be set up in any kitchen that has electricity, or is there some kind of other "infrastructure" needed?

You'll need special pots and pans - and not wear a pacemaker.

Where "special" just means that the pan has to be of a magnetic material. Cast iron yes, stainless steel maybe, copper no.

Also, good old enamel pots work very well, and they're awesome to cook with.

Depends on a stove. My can only detect proper induction-capable pots, enameled pots don't work, stove shows "F" (like f*ck this?).

Looks like the Scanpans I have (and love) now might not work, but the same manufacturer does offer an induction-compatible line. Replacing them all wouldn't be cheap, but certainly justifiable if I'm already buying a house and/or new stove.

I have a few Scanpans. They work on my stove just fine.

I wouldn't say so. I still use some of my old pans. Lots of new pots and pans even in cheap stores have the induction symbol on them.

Yes, but they usually need their own electric circuit because their peak current draw is very high. That's generally not that hard to install though.

One and two burner models seem to use ordinary 120V @15 amp power. I've tested two single burner models, they both top out at 1440 watts. I think the two burner models divide the 1440 watts total between the two burners.

Larger ones need 240VAC at 30amps.

I appreciate the information, but referring to an induction set-up as a “burner” makes me die inside, and I don’t even know why. It just feels wrong. Isn’t there a better term we can use?

British vernacular here: We used the word "hob"

I'm british too (proper, innit?) - I always thought that "hob" refers to the entire unit (a "range" or "stovetop" in en-US), not each unit-of-heating.

Don't forget that "Hobbs" can also refer to one's kettle

Mine requires a 240V outlet.

Induction is a game changer, just got one and also will never go back. I love showing friends that it can boil water in less than 2 mins.

So can my $10 water cooker.

I'm guessing that you're not in the US on 110v

Two phase power hookup in US has 220volts between the different phases.

Those are generally meant for single devices, hence aren't going to be on the kitchen counter. Instead you'd have to have a dedicated plug, circuit, and associated costs with that.

Also cost, I can buy a gas stove for 400$, how much for that induction?

$14,000+ give-or-take :(

Wrong. Approx $1200 USD for a Frigidaire induction range, $3000 USD for a higher end brand. Less than $2000 USD for an induction cooktop with 5 hobs.

Looks like the popular ones are pushing 3k at home depot with it going up to 4k, 600$ gets you a really nice gas stove..

US appliance prices are ridiculous. I paid 689€, taxes inclusive for a top of the range 24" Bosch induction top. You could add an integrated oven and still end up below ~1k€.

How do you char the outside of things without a flame? Burrito shells for instance. I use the flame directly on my food all the time. It really seems like you’re missing out.

A blowtorch?

A grill (US aka 'broiler') or blowtorch.

Isn’t charring just… burnt flesh? That’s a carcinogen too…

" Burrito shells for instance. "

What are your Burrito shells made of??

T-bone steak

Yeah, but it tastes good. It's a trade-off most of us are willing to make.

I've always meant to read up on acrylamide studies and check whether they're 'in mice' or 'in humans' as I suspect that our evolutionary path might have made us a bit less susceptible to the carcinogenic effect of acrylamides from meats and such, from our out-sourcing some of our digestive tract to campfires for a few hundred thousand years.

Much like how a significant amount of humans are able to consume and digest alcohol, having mitigated some of the worst effects over thousands of years.

Induction ovens are a complete non-starter if somebody in your family has pace maker and cannot approach it within 1,5m range while it's on... :-(

> You can't successfully ban X and replace it with Y if Y does not have feature parity with X

You certainly can. For example early cars couldn't go every place where horses could. And only recently cars started to become autonomous which horses could do since forever (my great-grandpa supposedly had a horse that drove itself back to home while grandpa was sleeping on the cart).

And of course horse produces manure which is useful in farming. Cars still lack that feature :)

Do you think horses are banned?

Horse drawn carriages are banned in some cities. I think many places don't need to ban them since owning a horse has become something of an elite activity due to cost/care/etc.

In Tucson Arizona, I saw a guy riding a horse down a busy street. It's pretty amazing how out of place it seemed, even there. The street he was riding on was historically used to race horses (much like people race cars on public roads today.)

There are old ordinances still in place which don't allow parking of horses in front of public buildings like court-houses.

> Horse drawn carriages

Where can carriages go that cars can’t?

On many European motorways with high top speed (e.g. German Autobahn), for example.

Do you think banning horses would cause a resurgence in horse use?

If not, then the lack of ban makes the "feature parity isn't necessary" argument even stronger.

> And of course horse produces manure which is useful in farming. Cars still lack that feature :)

Cars shit exhaust. I think there are products/research where yo can capture the exhaust with some filter you apply, and then can send the gathered matter back to the facility. Not sure if it's useful for anything though.

Induction is completely fine. I had a gas stove for the first time with the house I have now and I just don't see what the fuss is about. Also, my wife set her clothes on fire cooking, something that literally could not happen with an induction stove.

>You are forced to drink fast, or you end up having a flimsy straw that can't suck

At which point you just stop using the straw and drink normally.

The straw controversy was bizarre to me. I can't remember when I last used a straw and it's not often that I see them, aside from chain restaurants selling overpriced novelty drinks (e.g. starbucks).

The exact figure is elusive. But hundreds of millions are used per day in the US. https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/40534/do-americ...

Juice boxes, coffee stirring straws, and soda cups from fast food and convenience stores make up many of them.

But they're so small! They have so little plastic!

I mean, sure, it adds up, but how about we ban the plastic cups first?

Because there was that one turtle one time.

This stuff isn’t rational.

As the other user said, it’s hardly a rational process. The banners probably went for straws because they can be presented as relatively useless, or perhaps that their proponents are just gluttons.

I absolutely love plastic straws and carry them in my car. Not everyone can “drink normally“.

If only people who can't drink normally used plastic straws, I doubt they would be much of an environmental problem.

Hm, there are drinks that make "more sense" through straws.

I am somewhat entangled in Tiki culture, and (mostly-)rum-based mixology. Drinking through straws changes drinking speeds and makes the whole experience slower and arguably better.

I switched to stainless steel straws. Those are way better than paper straws which start to disintegrate after 10 minutes, and probably last for a lifetime.

Strongly disagree with this. Straws have a benefit over picking up a cup and sipping. A sip takes extra time and effort. If you have a lot of ice in the cup, it could get in the way of a sip. More importantly, straws can reduce spills, and make it more convenient to drink when your hands are busy or when you need to focus attention elsewhere.

TLDR: There's no way people are giving up straws in movie theaters.

Not to mention the millions of people with temporary or permanent disabilities that make fine motor control difficult or impossible. Or the millions (billions?) of people who need an unobstructed view while operating dangerous machinery like… maybe… driving.

A straw is one of the most basic accessibility and safety devices in the world.

> need an unobstructed view while operating dangerous machinery like… maybe… driving.

Maybe... don't drink while you're driving, that's a whole lot safer.

You had a point about those with disabilities though. The workaround there is to buy your own straws and keep them with you.

What's a movie theater?

Straws were always paper when I was a kid in school (1970's). But they may have been wax coated or something because they easily lasted long enough to finish your chocolate milk. ;-)

Better than electric, but we switched from gas to induction (magnets) when we redid our kitchen and I couldn't be happier with the change. It heats faster and more evenly than gas and is safer and easier to clean.

The only downside is that you can't heat aluminum with it. I had to replace my moka pot with a stainless steel alternative.

I was pretty against the idea, then I heard the sporkful on why we like gas ranges, and a review of induction. Maybe it’s worth a test drive.

https://www.sporkful.com/tag/induction-cooking/

Then you’ll be cooking with gas. :)

Agreed that paper straws are garbage - but the equivalency you are making doesn't work for gas stoves which have health impacts on their users - especially in smaller spaces/older buildings. Even my parents house, built in 2008, has no external venting for their gas stove/oven.

I agree gas stoves are so much better. I had always had electric until I moved into my current home that has a gas stove. It heats the pan so much faster. I love cooking on it.

as for paper straws I have purchased a number of steel straws but they are pain to clean

Induction has feature parity

Not quite. It doesn’t work on every pan. You can’t easily walk into someone else’s kitchen and guess the setting needed for some medium heat dish by visually examining the burner on induction like you can on gas. (I mention this as someone who’d prefer to cutover to induction and getting resistance* from the main user of the gas cooktop.)

* - couldn’t help myself

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