Tahoe's hiring crisis is unraveling small businesses during its busiest season
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Unless you are living with parents, or with multiple roommates, the housing market in these cities will price you out.
We have this same scenario taking place in the area I live, and NIMBY/zoning laws prevent affordable housing from being developed. I've been to town hall meetings where people decry "affordable housing" as bringing Section 8 and "undesirables" to the area. You mention that even the local school teachers have to commute in from over an hour away due to afford a place to live, but it falls on deaf ears.
If the local residents are wealthy enough to live in the area, perhaps businesses have to bite the bullet, raise prices locally, and pay more for essential services like bartenders, wait staff, retail, etc.
Jackson Hole reserves some housing for those who work full time for an employer in Teton County [1]. This strikes me as a reasonable balance between wanting to control housing stock and maintaining access to cheap labour.
If you buy a workforce house, there is obviously no obligation to maintain employment. I’m not sure how it works for rentals.
The alternatives are flying people into company-owned housing, the way they did in Fargo during the oil boom. That seems far less savoury.
Yes. And then be charged with fraud.
Fair enough. I don’t know the text of the law.
Also, the entire county has a population just over 20,000; the city of Jackson, less than half that. This would cause problems for the employer who let it happen as well as the new resident.
Edit: I know HN hates tedious back-and-forths, so let me just jump to the substantive point: any time you have a situation where you have special carve-outs for an essential good, you're not really solving the problem, you're just encouraging people to game it. See the past thread about enrolling in college part time to get health insurance.
The law isn’t code; mental state matters. If you got a job to buy a subsidised house with a plan to quit, in a small town, that will cause you problems. If you provided that sham job, it will cause you problems.
Maybe they hired a great lawyer and never sent any text messages about their brilliant plan to defraud their neighbours. But most probably they didn’t, and that fact pattern would certainly be enough to warrant scrutiny.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip
There was good reason to do away with such concepts.
Night and day. Company doesn’t own the home. Company doesn’t own the stores you shop at.
Where is the non-dollar payment?
The law says landlords must rent certain units to people who work locally. The company is never involved except in verifying employment. If the employee wants, they can commute through the pass to Victor, Idaho and earn exactly what they were earning before.
Got it. I see what you mean. No, they are not. Practically speaking, these jobs are not ones that can be done remotely. (But maybe another could.) More practically, absent these measures, those workers are commuting in.
They hire teams of two and force the men to do the manual labor and the women to do the deskwork.
They force the team to work and live on site. As in, to work there yoy must reside there. They make this sound like a bonus - it's not.
Now, when you inevitably decide to leave you must first find alternative living situation, and another job to pay for it while working extremely long hours at this place (sometimes 7 days a week open to close if they cant hire a relief team- and they only hire teams).
This is beyond evil.
When I was about 19 I worked on a rock quarry in Comstock, Texas. We had to live on-site at the 'wetback shack' (owner's words, and most of the employees were indeed illegals driven over from Acuna, Mexico). This was because he wanted to start work at 4am and this ensured everyone would show up- not his only reason however.
We made minimum wage busting and palletizing rock, even if we operated heavy machinery wage didnt change. They charged us $3 per soda or water at the swear to God it literally was Company Store. We also, we found out when we got our 1st check, were charged rent to stay in the shack. I think at what 3.30/hr (one water per hour!) damn near nothing was left. We, my friends and I who had family in Del Rio, Tx, could leave, and we did. The poor bastards who worked harder than anyone and were generally shit on (the illegals) they couldn't leave. The people who were from Comstock outskirts where there were no other jobs or places to rent? They stayed.
This was in 1999.
Tying living in any way with work is disgusting and not in any way shape or form altruistic.
Sure, you're missing the company owning the church, but fewer Americans are religious now. The employer also doesn't own all the local stores, but "It's not a company town because the stores are owned by people that all know each other (due to it being a small town), instead of one individual" is a little too close to be comfortable to me.
> If the local residents are wealthy enough to live in the area, perhaps businesses have to bite the bullet, raise prices locally, and pay more for essential services like bartenders, wait staff, retail, etc
I love your definition of "essential services" are bartenders and wait staff. You sound like a real great person to be planning for critical events, such as wildfires which occur in our area.
Also "If the local residents are wealthy enough to live in the area" - lol, do you realize in our Town of 16,000 people, there are more than 50% of our houses that are NOT locals. On a busy weekend we expand to about 55,000 people. The problem is not the full time locals, but the temporary residents who exacerbate this problem. Their houses remain off the market for local residents to rent because they want to (rightfully so) njoy their second home for a few weeks a year - which precludes a long-term leaser. It doesn't matter how much wages rise, locally - there are CFO's of local businesses who have had to move because they cannot find housing.
Yes, we live in a national forest, so simply building more housing is slowed down by natural beauty and environmental assessments, and the usual NIMBYism too. But the town is quite aligned behind trying to solve this problem somehow.
I am the OP the commenter was referring to. I wasn't going to bother responding to a nitpick on my use of the word "essential" but you summed up my meaning perfectly.
If all the bars, restaurants, cafes, dry cleaners, etc. go unstaffed (as they are right now), headlines start being made. We don't need to lump people into brush-fire fighters and bartenders in terms of who is essential.
To top it off I'm not a city person and I used to live in Truckee, CA, where this poster is living.
Can’t wait until this explodes and we can have sane housing policies again.
The fear-mongering is always about “first they’re coming for companies, then they’re coming for your home property tax!” and people believe it. With that said, I really hope they DO come for home property taxes, as right now it’s a big part of what encourages the wealthy and previous generations to stay put and never sell (or become landlords and move elsewhere) while pricing new homeowners out of the market, as now in addition to the mortgage on that seven-figure starter home they’re saddled with a few-grand-per-month tax bill.
https://www.taxfairnessproject.org/ has more info.
Seems like the fears are valid, no?
That's because you're not offering enough money. Raise it by 20%, 50%, 200%. Keep raising it until you get qualified applicants.
You will eventually find a price that attracts the people your business needs. And if that price is too high to turn a profit and there's no other way, shut down.
Article after article with business owners acting like they're entitled to pay workers sub-market and/or sub-living wages.
Time to wake up and face the fact that large sectors of the service economy are no longer viable due to decades of misreported inflation, trickle-down economics, and disastrous, unchecked monetary policy blunders.
This makes no sense in context.
Highly optimized chain restaurants are not known for paying waitstaff high wages.
You use the same ingredients as the day before: “This is the price of a steak in Lake Tahoe now.”
The free market runs in both directions. When labour is available, businesses use it to cram down wages - “if you don’t like it, find another job”.
But why is it, now that there is a wage shortage, we cannot use those same words back at businesses? “If you don’t like the lack of workers, increase the wage you are offering”?
Because that is exactly the problem. The free market is looking at the offered wages, and are showing businesses that those wages are not high enough in the simplest and most unambiguous way possible - with zero applicants.
And yet, businesses are squalling like spoiled, entitled babies that have just hit themselves with a hammer, and are blaming anyone but themselves.
It's when their apparent value and their real value diverge that problems manifest. The solution has always been to let them deteriorate just like their physical counterparts. We have democracy with frequent elections to deteriorate power. We have inflation to deteriorate money. Where are the land value taxes that deteriorate land? Property taxes do exist but some states decided to freeze them, creating an extreme wealth transfer from the future to the past.
The housing crisis that makes the hiring crisis inevitable has been in the making for decades. If the price to rent ratio gets insane it will have to go down eventually, all at once instead of year by year. Of course it is entirely possible that people end up waiting half a lifetime for a correction.
If we want to prevent a crisis we have to do a little readjustment to reality continuously but people love to deny reality right until the moment it catches up.
Let's talk about a more familiar concept: Inflation. People hate it. They hate it so much they would rather see as little inflation as possible even if it comes at the risk of even more inflation in the future. The current inflation rate is a good example. It's high. It's definitively too high for a single year. However, when you look at the past 10 years it is just right. It's not high enough to raise interest rates because we have a lot of inflation to catch up on. We are like a student that forgot to do his homework and now has to do twice as much.
The housing market has a lot of catching up to do and when it happens it won't be pretty. Corrections are inevitable, we can only shift their date. I would argue that healthy markets merely correct themselves very frequently so the impact of every single correction is perceived to be insignificant.
Housing has become a commodity, an investment, and so the rich, with their sloshing, frothing waves of cash, are buying it up at an ever accelerating pace. Not buying it up so they can live in these homes mind you, but buying it up so they can extract rent, extract PROFIT from homes that are meant for people and families to live in. So now, rather than serving as a place for people to live, housing is serving as investment for the rich to get ever richer from.
The real problem is that when it comes to housing, the marginal buyer is now some hyper-leveraged corporation with near limitless access to cheap capital, or some billionaire investor, who'll happily bid 50% over asking as they're planning on renting the house out for the maximum amount possible and bundling their "Assets" into a REIT, and so they'll gladly pay over asking as its just a cost of doing business.
So now you've got the rich through their companies and trusts buying up entire neighborhoods, out-bidding regular folks for homes, raising rents to increase profits, and turning homes that people could once have lived in, into vacation properties and short-term rentals or worst of all letting them sit empty just so they can sell them when the value goes up.
Increasing wages is one absolutely necessary step towards fixing the economy, but real wages would have to rise 100%, 500%, a even f*king 1000% in a lot of places for regular folks to actually be able to afford the kinds of homes that a family could once have afforded on a single middle class income.
So literally the only thing that can fix things is to make housing worth a lot less. But that will never happen because that would cause some already fantastically wealthy people to be a little less wealthy, and the rich would rather people die and go homeless than ever be less rich.
And, I'd suggest, structuring property taxes to make real estate investment less lucrative.
A lot of people feel this way, a plurality one might even say, more is possible than despair leads us to think. “[Capitalism’s] power seems inescapable. So did the divine right of kings.”
Small folks DO have the ability to make change--it's called a labor strike. And, while the little people aren't thinking of it this way, that is precisely what is happening right now.
That's the entire problem. Everything is tied to pay. The reality is that nobody can get good labor, let alone good skilled labor, at 20$/hour. If your business model can only work by paying minimal wages then your businese model has failed. Labor costs, wage expectations, have gone up. That is a good thing for employees. I have little sympathy for anyone who thinks they should be brought back down.
https://www.caminofinancial.com/restaurant-costs/
So does this one:
https://www.7shifts.com/blog/restaurant-costs/
and this one:
https://www.touchbistro.com/blog/restaurant-operating-costs/
1) "the rent's too damn high"
2) too much renting going on, not enough <something else>
I'm not sure I disagree with either, but it doesn't seem that can explain the situation in restaurants, since it affects huge chunks of the population and the economy.
Note: I’m not very familiar with the situation, just ideating.
In the past, landlords owned property and rented it out. If there was a mortgage, rent covered the interest payments rather than principal (interest rates were once far higher than today) and rents were generally lower than mortgage costs. If rent is higher than mortgage costs, the renter would be better off purchasing the property. A landlord that is asking rents higher than their mortgage is simply leveraging their better credit rating, renting out an asset for higher than someone with similar credit could purchase it.
If this wasn't the case, in theory renters would just become buyers themselves.
Got a citation for this claim?
During my 32 years living in the USA, and the 25 before that in the UK and elsewhere, I was never aware of rent working this way.
The difference between renting and owning was not so much the monthly payments, but:
* tenant has no financial or labor responsibility for repairs or capital improvements; landlord fully responsible.
* landlord collects all (if any) capital gains
* landlord pays insurance on building; tenant pays insurance on contents
* owner combines all above roles.
If you are in the lower income ranks it makes sense to check out of this system and not take these jobs. What's a a job good for if you can't afford to live with the income?
In the long run I think society should accept that lower income people also should benefit from a growing economy and not just the top ranks.
I've traveled in or through Asheville, Greenville, Savannah, Knoxville, Jacksonville, and noticed it. Savannah was probably the worst, and it is not a high cost area, at all.
I live in Florida. There's a burger king near me that is just...empty. Lights on, nobody there.
The 7/11 near me has one employee. He runs 3 registers to keep the line moving. I see him training people about once or twice a month, but they never seem to stick around.
Yes, restaurants are busy here, but the service and food quality is obviously suffering.
Look up housing prices in the Tampa bay area. The new construction is all "Luxury" (just a word, still crappy) so they can sell $1,500 one bedrooms to foreigners.
Not that anyone's surprised, but look to Florida for more collapses (ecosystems, economic, not just buildings) coming soon...
Not in my experience.
> Look up housing prices in the Tampa bay area. The new construction is all "Luxury" (just a word, still crappy) so they can sell $1,500 one bedrooms to foreigners.
This just reads as incredibly bigoted. We're getting a decent amount of immigration influx but the majority of population rise is from out of state. Affordable housing is being developed and has been the last few years . New funding initiatives for affordable housing are in the works across the bay [1] [2], and there's a massive mixed income complex in planning for a major site across the river from downtown Tampa.
Demand is outpacing supply here. Plain and simple.
1. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tampabay.com/news/st-peters... 2. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tampabay.com/news/hillsboro...
The topic is about staffing shortages in one city. I laid out my experience seeing this same thing elsewhere. And two different people tell you they see it in Florida.
Instead of adding your input, which is valid, you seem to contest everyone else.
That's my opinion. But I didn't downvote you, as I cannot.
I'm glad Tampa doesn't have the same issue most other cities in the US are seeing. You are lucky, it causes a lot of nagging issues.
It's going to take a while to sort out who works where in the new equilibrium.
Seems to me one of those two classes will need to be inconvenienced if we don't want inflation to spiral out of control, because otherwise the asset owners will continue to buy more assets with cheap money that will push prices up, while asset consumers will continue to require higher and higher salaries to afford to pay the increasing rents to the asset owners.
Asset owners should be the ones taking the hit since they have been backstopped for far longer and are in a much better financial position to deal with it. But the asset owner class is also the one running the country and its tough to imagine them doing something against their short-term self interest.
Gonna be interesting to see what kind of equilibrium shakes out. I hope this plane can be landed without crashing...
Very true. The Fed pretty much exclusively worries about asset owners and how to drive up asset prices even more. And most people in political or business leadership are asset owners.
I don’t think this will end well. Either we will become a society of super rich people that live separately from a large underclass or there will be a revolution at some point.
How can this rent increase be justified other than with unlimited greed? And the same people are surprised that people don't want to stay in a job with stagnant wages while their costs are rising at incredible opace.
I moved from Reno to SF to Reno through the pandemic. Houses that were $1600 two years ago are $3000/mo now. I can afford it, sure… but it’s not really a $3000 house, the $2000 houses are even worse, and the locals getting local wages are really going to struggle to get decent housing at a decent rate.
I fully expect my rent to get raised when my lease is up, and there’s little inventory to move to. It’ll just rise and rise.
At some point the equity game may start to follow the GME trends and crash, but CA homeowners showing up in NV with cash are really distorting the market. And landlords are seeing their house prices go up $50-100K in 90 days and calculating what they should be charging for rent off that. A lot of these houses were bought more than 3 years ago, so the rental margins qualify more as takings than real market value.
I'm genuinely not being facetious: why don't they pay more? Isn't that the solution to a labor shortage in a free market?
That cook should be asking for a raise, right now.
His angle: "If you pay me more, I can probably find someone else I know to come work here."
My own experience suggests that carrot > stick 9/10 times when it comes to salary negotiations, however.
Phrasing as an opportunity generally lands better than phrasing as a threat.
Rent control and government owned housing tend to work less than increasing the housing stock. (Affordable housing problems only help a small fraction of people and raises the cost for everyone else slowing down new building)
I wonder if the underlying cause is the discrete punch of Covid having flushed out what were otherwise marginally-unsustainable living situations. Imagine: your rent is uncomfortably high for your wage, but you're barely treading water. The one time expense of quitting your job and moving to a lower cost of living area would disrupt you too much, and so you remain even though it sucks. Then Covid hits, your job goes away, your income (if any) is now decoupled from having a specific residence, and so you move. Even if your previous job comes back, and even if they offer to pay more, you certainly aren't going to move back into that trap!
So we are returning to factory towns? It seems the only solution is the cap rental prices, which traditionally doesn’t work.
Maybe the city should be buying at the housing and providing it?
We do this in New York. It’s pork for politicians.
Is their suffering better or worse than the "distortions" caused by "interfering" in the market?
I guess the businesses could close and people could just stop going to Tahoe all together.
Agree with the land value tax (if you don't have it) - it would flatten and speed things up.
Someone working full time should be able to pay life expenses without government assistance.
There is another aspect to this though. Before I get to that, employers here in my small town are trying to bend over backwards to hire people including a local restaurant owner offering to let one woman bring her young (less than a year old) child to work since childcare is scarce. Another business owner offered "make your own schedule - just need one weekend a month" as they want a weekend to themselves. At the other extreme, you have people with little or know experience demanding more (even when stores are offering $18/hr) yet when hired - they don't show up reliably, spend time on their phones, etc.
At some point, the employment situation will work itself out, but there is a significant and consistent issue (across multiple fields) that a notable percentable of young people are entitled and have a crap work ethic. Just like companies wanting to pay too little and are getting bit by it, the lack of work ethic will come back to those showing such now.
If no one is applying for your jobs offer more money, that’s how supply and demand works.
> Las Vegas gas stations are running out of gas because there aren't enough truck drivers to bring the gas here.
Naive view here, but isn't this an indication that the job is not paying enough for the location?
It doesn't matter how much you're paying people - they can't find a place to live here. The CFO of company here has had to move to Arizona recently and works remotely now. I live in Truckee and this isn't just affecting temporary workers or low-paid workers. This isn't even the "well it's gonna be $3500 for a one bedroom like SF, so I'll pay up". people simply can't find places in a reasonable pricing band. Then, when they find it - the owners sell it next year and the search begins again.
Anybody without a house is in a vulnerable state in this economy IMO.
Margins are razor thin in restaurants specifically. If you pay people more, you’ll need to raise your prices and that will offset the pay raise if it happens across the board.
What am I missing?
CEOs, managers, capitalist rent-seekers (outflow)
Of course in the general case, the places the workers do shop at, probably supermarkets, will notice that people have more money to spend and will likely try to capture that extra money for themselves - either because demand of certain items increases or just plain greed.
So continues the endless, exhausting and unwinnable battle between wages and inflation
Exactly.
This while at the same time some people are becoming very rich and the country considers itself very wealthy.
What I am debating is whether raising rages simply causes inflation that then negates the effect of the wage. That's not a problem with an economy per-say, but rather just how an economy works. But perhaps I'm missing something.
All of that said, I share the concern about wealth inequality. A country will eventually collapse if the people at the bottom feel like the game is rigged and they will never get ahead.
You could argue that exactly this has happened when upper incomes were raised disproportionately in the last few decades. All the major expenses/investments of that class like housing, health care, education, stocks and others shot up. Seems there is more money around than they can use productively so they just kept bidding up prices.
The problem here is equating wages and income.
It is to everyone’s benefit if jobs with a net positive value get done, even if the value isn't enough to support the worker at an adequate lifestyle without supplementation.
Everyone should also have income to support an adequate lifestyle, but there's no reason that needs to come from wages — that's what a social welfare system, whether classical or UBI-based — ought to guarantee.
Say we decide $1,000/month is the minimum support level. It is generally better that a job that the market would pay $500/month gets done, the profits of owners and wages of higher level employees resulting from that job being done get paid and taxed, and the worker gets at least $500 in social support than that the job goes undone, the taxes on the other income streams dependent on it go unpaid, and the worker collects $1,000 in social support. And its even worse for the worker in the latter case if the minimum income we demand to allow work is higher than the social support we provide the able bodied without work (which is generally the case in the US, especially unless you have dependent children, outside of short-term unemployment of those who previously had sufficient income for UI to provide an adequate temporary support.)
That's how it seems to me as well. This article also mentions it towards the bottom in reference to restaurants in New Orleans...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/is-raising-the-minimum-wag...
Do we have any examples / models where people having figured out how to raise the bottom without raising the entire ladder?
But those wealthier customers probably provide high-end labor inputs to goods and services the redtaurant worker consumes, so driving up their expenses increases their salary demands which drives up the costs of the goods and services their labor contributes to, thus driving up the restaurant worker’s cost of living.
Obviously this will be very attenuated, but it is a real effect.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/comments/o9mbz8/t...
2) If you need to hold hunger and homelessness over people’s heads in order to make them work, maybe your system is morally bankrupt?
You mean the human condition? Life has always been this way and since we're not a post-scarcity society yet I don't see how any workable system would not be morally bankrupt by this standard.
Maybe people would be more eager to work if the benefits were more equitably distributed?
How can we be sure that we aren't? Or rather, how will we ever be able to tell whether we are living in a post-scarcity society, when artificial scarcity is imposed by those with political power?
We don't have true scarcity in housing. What we have is artificial constraints on building being imposed by the state.
We also don't have scarcity in basic foodstuffs. There's plenty of food. What we have is a system of distribution that requires that people exchange money for food, and the only source of money that most people have is to exchange it for their labor. We could instead just give people enough money to pay for basic food, energy and housing.
There is scarcity in other things, and there will always be scarcity in some things, even in "post-scarcity" societies. Capitalist market economies are usually very efficient at allocating such resources, and people would still have the incentive to work so they can get the extra things that they want to have for themselves or their families. Capitalism can co-exist with a post-scarcity society.
A workable but less "morally bankrupt" system would lower the cost of housing by using government policy to increase supply, and would give people enough cash to pay for basic food, energy and housing through a universal basic income.
Sure, as long as "efficient" means "most aligns with the desires of capital".
Personally I’d argue that capitalism is great for non-necessary consumer goods, and disastrous for necessities. My TV is cheaper (inflation adjusted) and measurably superior to what was on sale half a century ago. Unfortunately my house is massively more expensive than it was half a century ago, and unlike a TV I will die sooner if I don’t have some sort of dwelling to live in.
If we’re going to keep capitalism, and the growing sentiment against it here makes me question even that, we need to put stronger safety rails around it.
It would be so much more simple to say you can just buy a lot for maybe $25000 and put one of these garden sheds in and live on it https://www.costco.com/stonecroft-12'-x-10'-wood-storage-she.... There you go, full housing setup for under $30000, but it would be a very low standard of living, but much nicer than sleeping in a car or on the street. In many populated counties it is illegal to sleep on your own land if you don't have an inspected house or utility hookups.
There are also often limits on adding new dwelling space to your land. I would need a permit to add a detached studio to my back yard if it crosses the threshold of being a “dwelling unit”. Usually a bathroom is enough to trigger this regulation.
We have plenty of everything, enough for everyone but we allocate and distribute it too inefficiently. Supermarkets destroy their unsold food, and Amazon their unsold products. Zoning laws mandate low density areas when we have the engineering to build enough homes for all vertically on the land we do have. Apple could provide iPhones at a cost that everyone can afford but they deliberately price them at a level that only a top % can handle. I think we all know about the scam of diamonds at this point as well.
It's all just fake and caused by the desire for short term profits.
So realistically it's a decent way of managing the excess and providing equality.
They don't sell like produce obviously but the food is almost never expired only expiring soon sometimes.
Or, employers could just offer more money.
> Seriously, if you don't work right now you are getting UI, Food Stamps, and you don't have to pay rent.
Note that there is not a rent moratorium, just an eviction moratorium, so unless you plan is to both get evicted and deal with the unpaid debt (perhaps through bankruptcy, which has downstream adverse impacts) when the moratorium ends, and not move.(since there is likewise not a moratorium on adverse credit reporting, or potential landlords making credit checks) there are very good reasons to pay rent.
We take this as a given, but historically this is actually quite unusual. It was not uncommon for kings in the past to declare a “debt jubilee” where all debts public and private were null and void. These were commonly called for both important royal events, as well as locally after natural disasters struck.
Obviously there are knock on effects to this. It’s very hard to give out loans if the loan is likely to get wiped out when the king dies, and the cost of any loan is inexorably tied to the risk of a jubilee. But given the scope of personal economic crisis in the face of the pandemic, perhaps we could have taken a page from history and provided some relief to our poor and vulnerable, rather than letting them go destitute through no fault of their own?
Avoidance of such positions for perceived risk seems more likely, as well as low pay and high stress.
1) It seems obvious that the high fatality rate among line cooks and other “essential workers” has driven them out of that line of work. If my colleague died for a line cook job, I’d strongly consider changing careers.
2) We’re running into the consequences of spending a year calling these people “essential workers” and “heroes” after decades of treating them like garbage. They’ve had a taste of dignity and recognition that they’ve been denied for a long time, good luck taking it back away.
3) In many ways this looks less like a labor shortage and more like a capital strike. Unless if you’re in an area where there has been significant migration, the workers do exist and are willing to work … but not at the rates that capital is demanding that they work.
In Truckee - this is the problem: Sure, you can live in Reno 40 minutes away and make $15-20 an hour there(but rents are rising - I know someone paying $3200 for a place now), but then why would you commute to a small town 45 minutes away for the same $17 if you can't live there and enjoy the mountains?