OS X Lion Now Available in the US Mac App Store | Hacker News Reader

OS X Lion Now Available in the US Mac App Store

itunes.apple.com

271 pointsthisisblurry272 comments

I'll echo what I said on the Siracusa thread: Has everyone managed to overlook how patently awful and useless Mission Control is on multiple monitors?

Whereas in the Spaces view in Snow Leopard I could move a window to a different space AND a different monitor with a quick drag, Mission Control doesn't allow this - I have to first move the window to the correct "Desktop", then exit MC and drag it to the correct monitor. Full Screen Apps are similarly useless on multiple monitors - regardless of which monitor the window originates on, clicking the full screen button returns it to whatever display is designated "primary". Even worse, while you're in full screen on one display, the others become useless as it blocks them out with Apple's new favorite canvas texture. Why? At first I thought all this was intentional and that Apple was leaving multi-monitor users in the dust to focus on Macs that are very close to iOS devices (11" Macbook Air comes to mind), but today they also announced a new Cinema Display that lets you daisy chain two monitors off a single Thunderbolt port. Clearly it's still a mode of operation they intend to support for some time - so why have they crippled it so horribly in this release?

I wish they would go the xmonad route, and simply treat each display as an independent "workspace container". Being able to switch independently (and still use the other display when using a fullscreen app) is a huge productivity gain.

This past week a co-worker introduced me to Moom... he said it was the closest he would ever get to xmonad on the Mac:

http://manytricks.com/moom/

This is the main reason I use linux on my mbp instead of os x. Being unable to manipulate my monitors independently is asinine.

> so why have they crippled it so horribly in this release?

I'm guessing it's because they decided to put full-screen apps on their own space (sensible), but there's nothing else you can put in there since the application essentially is the space (if you shut down the full-screen mode, the application goes back to its original space).

Basically, lack of foresight: they built full-screen for small-screen machines (e.g. the Air) and it's just broken for multi-screen.

How is the backwards compatibility in general? I got a Oracle 10g database running on SL that I am particularly worried about.

I got it anyways - will have to do a full backup and find out I suppose.

Speaking of 4GB downloads - OS X still does not have something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_Intelligent_Transfer... which can utilize priorities, throttling and do idle bandwidth downloads. That means my VOIP calls are screwed until the download is done. Even any of the Apple routers don't do QoS stuff I guess.

[Edit] Apparently the backwards compat is not good enough for Oracle :( -

-bash: ulimit: max user processes: cannot modify limit: Invalid argument oracle@~$ sqlplus / as sysdba Segmentation fault: 11 oracle@~$

[Edit2] And the scrollbars are throwing me off but there is a setting to revert to old behavior. Xcode no longer works, JVM was removed and downloaded when I tried to use it - App Store doesn't seem to have a 10.7 compatible XCode update yet.

Ho hum for the most part and even nightmarish for people using Xcode.

For compatibility in general, http://roaringapps.com/ looks like a decent guide.

Not sure about Oracle 10g though.

> Xcode is no longer there

It was never part of the base install so that's unsurprising.

> App Store doesn't seem to have a 10.7 compatible XCode update yet.

> Ho hum for the most part and even nightmarish for people using Xcode.

Thanks for being the coalmine canary, I'll be waiting for next week as planned.

> It was never part of the base install so that's unsurprising.

No, but it was always included along with the install disks. No install disks this time and no X Code. It's worth mentioning.

I fail to see how it's worth mentioning. Xcode not being included in the Lion DMG is not surprising, it's "no shit": Xcode was never in the OSX image in the first place, why would Lion be any different?

The only difference is that 4.1 is not released yet, and thus not currently available. That's it. That it's not part of lion (let alone installed by default) is anything but surprising.

XCode was in fact always included with the OS X images.

No. Xcode was on a separate disk, never on OSX's. Again, Xcode was never a part of the base install or of the OSX image.

edit: wow, is that how low HN has sunk, voting down reality-based statements and voting up complete nonsense?

It helps when your "reality-based statements" are factually true.

"You may also be able to install Xcode 3.2 from your Mac OS X 10.6 DVD and then run Software Update to get the latest version."

http://guide.macports.org/chunked/installing.xcode.html

" There’s actually a third version—Xcode 2.0 shipped on the original Tiger installation DVDs back in April. "

http://www.macworld.com/article/46286/2005/08/installxcode.h...

etc. It's been on every OS X install disc I've used, which goes back to about 10.4.

Or maybe some of us are holding the single disc that came with our computers, from which we've installed both OSX and Xcode.

But no, we're probably just jerks, and out to get you.

It has been on the same disk since Tiger 10.4 was released on DVD.

Your statement is true for the CD installer sets that came with 2002's release of Jaguar 10.2 and the CD version of Panther 10.3.

Sounds like it may have been a while since your last update.

Iirc my MacBook Air (2010) came with Xcode installed on it. Could be wrong.

What is worth mentioning, if you had an earlier version of XCode installed, upgrade to Lion breaks it.

Wasn't that always the case as well? I don't remember but that seems likely since Apple always releases a new Xcode version synchronized with the main OS.

Can't say, I am recent OS X convert. Took me a second to figure out why all the stuff I installed with brew stopped working. Turned out git somehow got uninstalled/disabled, and brew relies on being able to find gcc in the path, and it was no longer there. Updated to newer XCode to get gcc back, and all is happy.

I was told 4.1 is working fine.

As far as I know, 4.1 is still in GM, not released yet, you need a paid developer account to get the GM. In fact, not only is 4.1 not available, 4.0 is gone from MAS.

I forgot people really used it without the developer program. Good point for those users.

As an active developer with apps in the store etc, I don't like upgrading xcode until it's a final release. I've used GMs and betas too many times and then found out I can't submit code built from it.

It's really annoying, and I'm not about to test out the buggy xcodes or manage multiple installs. The current 4.x retail releases are buggy enough.

So if that's the way it's going to be I will also wait for everything to be released fully.

Oh I'm in the same place (well I'm a 3rd party developer supporting many shops like yours).

I've heard from one of the MailChimp guys 4.1 was submitting binaries just fine.

I call myself 'An Upgrade Coward'. I'm afraid of Xcode3 breaking even (a couple clients). Probably going to dupe my SSD into the Spinner so I have a working Xcode3 install no matter what.

You do know you can install multiple Xcode versions in parallel right?

It's available now: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/xcode/id448457090

Thanks. Good news, one item off the checklist.

Just to note, i never bought the xcode 4 package from the app store. After I purchased snow leopard the price changed from $4.99 to free.

So while the base os install doesn't have it, it appears as though the naysayers were wrong about them charging for the dev tools. Although I have to go home and update to Lion to be able to download it, it won't let me snag it on my 10.6 system.

Just thought i'd throw that out into the wind so people don't think they need to have both bought. Though $5 is pretty miniscule imo.

But gcc does work right?

Nope - GCC is not to be found after the upgrade. I guess we will have to wait for 4.1 to become available on Mac App Store.

it is now: http://itunes.apple.com/app/xcode/id448457090

XCode 4.1 is now on the App Store: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/xcode/id448457090

...and it's free again? I thought they'd gone to a 4.99$ price for some accounting reason with 4.0?

Said accounting reason made it $5 for SL users, but free (or more accurately, "included") with Lion.

Does the latest VMWare Fusion work right?

Yes 3.1.3 is working fine for me - haven't tested fully but the app starts and my suspended VMs all resume and work fine.

When will we be able to install Lion under VMWare - hopefully pretty soon now that the license allows it.

yes

What is the max user processes ulimit set to?

There is a great post on the macports mailing list that identifies and explains some issues installed software might have after upgrading:

http://lists.macosforge.org/pipermail/macports-dev/2011-July...

I got bit by the Libc part, and I bet a lot of homebrew users will be as well. FWIW, on macports svn at least, these issues are resolved.

If you have any kind of Oracle support contract, please put in a ticket. From what I've read, Oracle has adopted 'until paying customers complain enough, we don't even know OS X 10.7 exists' stance on this.

Also, knowing how long it took them to get a working x86 client out, I wouldn't hope to use 10.7 for Oracle-related development at least till next year.

I'm on SL and I also depend on Oracle 10g, so thanks for the note on the Seg Fault, that would be showstopper moving to Lion.

Now, I get the ulimit error on SL too, that's just that your "oracle" user is not authorized to set ulimit that high (it's in your oracle ~/.bashrc). You probably followed the installation instructions from Pythian (http://www.pythian.com/news/1937/quick-install-guide-for-ora...), just like I did. If you didn't get that error before, maybe the Lion installation has reset the max processes limit.

Here's how to check the current value:

  ojosilva@snow:~$ sysctl kern.maxprocperuid
  kern.maxprocperuid: 266

Change it like this (so it matches the ulimit -Su and -Hu values in oracle's .bashrc):

  sudo sysctl -w kern.maxprocperuid=512

Maybe that will cure your segfault. Read thru the Pythian page and recheck all your sysctl parameters. Let me know how it goes.

I feel greatly let down by the Calendar and Address book apps. The whole "looks like a real office object" metaphor reminds me too much of Microsoft Bob.

Also the menu to select calendars feels poorly designed and doesn't always update correctly. The default view in mail is practically useless to me as often i tend to sort messages by date, person, or subject in order to find stuff.

So in some regards a step forwards, in others a step back.

A show of hands, does anyone use these apps?

I haven't used anything but a web interface for webapps for a while now. iCal and Address Book are always among the first things deleted by me on a new OSX install.

I use those apps. I prefer not to use web based applications.

Yes, many people do.

I have yet to find equivalent web apps which offer equivalent security and poweruser capabilities.

i also use web apps for my mail and calendar.

For all the Mac Developers on ADC: This is, to the best of my knowledge and according to reports from other developers, the same as the GM release on July 1st. If you have that, you already have the final.

Should have known that before I clicked 'buy'. Glad I own Apple shares so I can make a profit from my unnecessary purchase.

If you'd redeemed the codes Apple gave you as a registered developer, you wouldn't have been able to buy Lion – it was already purchased by your last redemption code and, like all previously purchased App Store apps, clicking that button would simply have re-downloaded the app (or, in this case, Lion's installer).

Yikes, really? I'm still hitting a few pretty big bugs with full-screen apps and things like that. Okay then.

The reversing of the scrolling direction is certainly going to take a lot of getting used to. The new way feels semi-natural with the track pad, but with a mouse wheel not so much.

You can put it back the old way in the system preferences.

Thank god!

Give it a few days and you'll think going back to the old way will take a lot of getting used to.

I gave it about two hours.

To me it's more intuitive to scroll my two fingers down to scroll down the page.

Granted, it is odd that it's the opposite way round on the iPhone which I use almost as much as my laptop. Go figure!

> Granted, it is odd that it's the opposite way round on the iPhone which I use almost as much as my laptop. Go figure!

It's pretty simple: on a touchscreen you're moving the application itself. So having the application "stick" to your finger makes intuitive sense, that's like moving a sheet of paper on a desk, behind a stencil.

On a laptop, you're not really moving the application itself, it's closer to moving a remote-controlled window in front of the application, so moving "up" will move the "window" upwards, and show you what's above the current stuff in the process.

Agreed on both counts. I think it's too unnatural with a mouse so I switched it back on the desktop. On my laptop I left it alone.

I think about it as using my finger to drag the screen up or down on the mousewheel (like I'm scratching the page down or up with my fingernail). After about a week it is very disconcerting to do the opposite.

I did also need to setup my windows computer to do the opposite direction on scroll though to make the transition work (autohotkey script is on this page).

I found the big deal was reversing my windows computer as well. (I reversed mac scrolling weeks ago with Scroll Reverser).

It's lovely once you get used to that (as scrolling matches most smart phones then)

Auto hot key script:

  WheelUp::
  Send {WheelDown}
  Return

  WheelDown::
  Send {WheelUp}
  Return

Give it a week. After a couple of days your mind flips and suddenly the old way seems wrong.

An hour or so was enough for me. Just one thing to unserdtand: you are moving content, not the window above it. It's much easier to get if you ever used any new touchscreen devices.

And the old way is wrong—the viewport never moves as we scroll so we were always moving content. Just get used to inverted scheme.

I actually like it so far. I'm just worried I won't get used to it on all of my other computers now.

There are new MacBook Airs too: http://www.apple.com/macbookair/ (With a currently somewhat broken webpage.)

And new Mac Minis (Whose pages are also currently broken...)

Quad-core Mac Mini servers… http://store.apple.com/uk/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_mi...

And it seems as though the (white plastic) MacBooks have gone.

Yep.. replaced by a $999 Air.

and the rumored thunderbolt display

Still only 4gb max memory on the Airs? That's the one thing holding me back (well, besides money)

I've been using a 13" MBA as my main computer for the past year, and the 4GB max is really limiting for virtualization. The laptop can choke with with all of my usual tools open (Virtualbox/Photoshop/Chrome/Terminal).

Yup, I know I can get away with 4GB if I'm careful because that's what my current 2007 MBP has. But will I still be able to use the Air for work when it's that old? I suspect 4GB will be comically small in 2015.

The modern SSDs in the new Airs makes a colossal difference when swapping. I've never had any problems with only having 4GB RAM on my previous gen 11" MBA, and I'm regularly running a host of apps and doing active app development with Xcode.

Swapping at 2-400MB/s is far less painful than swapping at ~15MB/s.

I wish they would add the backlit keyboards in some manner to the Airs

They have.

http://www.apple.com/macbookair/features.html#backlit

You mean this: http://www.apple.com/macbookair/features.html#backlit ?

They did.

Gosh, I seem to remember brand new Airs being released recently (at which point I bought an 11"). Hasn't it only been since last Fall that they've refreshed the lineup?

It's been 9 months already (to the day).

I think they are refreshing this fast to include Thunderbolt in everything.

They've updated to Sandybridge architecture(32nm and pretty fair Intel IGP).

Wow, just noticed they removed the DVD drive from the Minis.

More precisely, they switched all minis to the "mini server" case (server was introduced in late 2009 and did not have a DVD drive, replacing it with a second HDD instead)

It'll be interesting to see from the upcoming tear-downs if they all have the hardware/cabling to support two internal drives. The $799 one gets the nice graphics and an i7 option but no dual drive option--will someone be able to max it out with a second drive aftermarket?

The $799 one does have a dual drive option. You can upgrade to a 750GB 7200RPM drive, a 256GB SSD, or the SSD+7200RPM drive.

Thanks, I see it now. Interesting.

Seriously disappointing,

2gb ram in a $1000 laptop? How much more could bumping that for 4 actually cost them, $15?

4gb ram/256gb hd was expected to be the new base, not the ceiling.

Guess I'll have to wait on the other 'ultrabooks'

last year i stepped away from the apple brand. just much happier going the FOSS route.

i now have a thinkpad x220 running gentoo with the following options: IPS display, 2.7GHz core i7, 8GB 10666 RAM, 160GB intel SSD, bluetooth3, usb3, 3 usb ports (one always on), sdhc, express slot, displayport, vga, and a 15 hour battery. size is 12.5" and weight is about 3.5 pounds.

i also got a docking station for it (oh i missed those when i was a mac user), which is connected to a 2560x1440 27" display via a display port. the intelHD3000 graphics card is the same one used on the airs and for the integrated graphics on the pros so video performance is similar, while other hardware performance is much better.

i got a reasonably good deal on all of it and i likely wouldn't go back to apple with this setup. the only [minor] annoyance is that the 12.5" screen is only 1366x768. it could be a little better, but it's workable and as i wanted an ultraportable, it's not bad. the IPS option really makes for a beautiful screen.

hi!

if i connect a monitor directly to the displayport of the x220, the monitor realised the computer put doesn't display anything. if i do so with the vga-port all works fine!

did you ever connect a monitor to the displayport a get it work? if so, can you give me some help?

thanks alot!

lg oxyl

Xcode is free for Lion http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/xcode/id448457090?mt=12

If you are a windows user and adore the scrolling functionality:

  WheelUp::
  Send {WheelDown}
  Return

  WheelDown::
  Send {WheelUp}
  Return

Autohotkey is your savior :OD

Can anyone tell me if homebrew still works on it? What about macvim, rvm, mysql binaries, etc?

Waiting is always the hardest part :P.

before upgrading, make sure that you can install xcode lion as well. old xcode won't work on lion.

macvim with janus plugin crashes like hell.

Yeah that's what I'm waiting for: the state of Xcode 4 for lion (is it free, or still $5?) and the macports update.

Apparently installing MacPorts from SVN should work, although it's a bit more of a hassle: http://blog.affien.com/archives/2011/03/10/macports-on-lion-...

Installing MacPorts is easy, however, be aware that some ports do not compile yet. Some of them have bugs filed against them, but given the NDA, MacPort developers could not fix them until Lion was out.

Yeah but I'm not going to bother with that, especially since packages will likely be broken. I'll wait until next week.

So Xcode 3 won't work and mavcim keeps crashing. Is it like: sometimes seems unstable - crashing, or completely unusable - crashing.

Details much appreciated as it is my main editor.

Same here. I found this: https://github.com/b4winckler/macvim/wiki/ChangeLog

Might just have to upgrade to snapshot 59. I guess I'll find out when lion finishes downloading.

But really, people actually use the open/save panels in MacVim?

Many thanks for the link.

I do use them for sessions not files - I find that feature very usefull when dealing with a bunch of projects.

I am currently on snapshot 59 as well. It is stable in the way that it crashes ~ every 10 mintues.

Homebrew works, after you run 'brew update' (in case you haven't already, I'm guessing). Initially got erros 'Cannot defer diagnostic messages' for pr, but updated brew seems to be working well.

With every new OSX version update I just assume it's gonna take a solid 8 hours to get rails running properly again...

MacVim crashes if you try to use the UI open/save panel.

Using :e works perfectly though.

Tried to update to Lion: couldn't do it.

Tried to update Snow Leopard so I could update to Lion: computer now kernel panics on boot.

Tried to reinstall Snow Leopard from DVD: turns out the disk drive is broken.

Tried to install a Linux distro from a USB key: turns out they're nearly impossible to boot on a Mac. Still haven't figured out how to do it.

This went well.

This is why i cloned my drive to an external drive prior to the upgrade. Just in case.

I tried to install Lion after purchasing it from the App Store. It kernel panicked during install and then TRAPPED ME at the installer. Despite restarting, using disk utility, etc, I was stuck.

I erased the partition and tried to install again. Kernel panic. I tried putting Lion on a USB drive. Again, kernel panic

In my desperation I just kept running the installer over and over again and ONE TIME it worked. I was so pleased - until it kernel panicked on restart.

Still, it's working now. It will kernel panic every now and then. When I look at the logs for the kernel panics, the last kext loaded almost always has to do with networking/WIFI. This seems to be a relatively common.

Was SL more stable?

I have recently tried (yet again) to make some bootable USB keys on a mac. Turns out you have to convert iso to UDxx:

    $ hdiutil convert -format UDRW -o bootable.img bootable.iso && dd if=bootable.img of=/dev/disk1 bs=1m # Check the disk number with diskutil list!

If it still won't boot, rEFIt (or Boot Camp, naturally) help with BIOS emulation.

"The software could not be verified. It may have been corrupted or tampered with during downloading."

Not off to a great start here... Anybody else having this problem?

[edit: deleted it; downloaded it again from my employers network (completely different ISP just in case a particular CDN had a bad copy. Same problem! Starting to think there's a bug in the installer or something...]

I'm having the same issue so came here to search.

Downloaded it twice and get the exact same error. Deleted and removed from trash the first time.

Edit Reboot your machine. That worked for me. I can now install fine with the same 'corrupt' file I had before.

I found an Apple Support thread where some others are reporting the same issue: https://discussions.apple.com/message/15660833#15660833

I posted my md5's of the internal .dmg's from the download there. They're different from the two unsuccessful downloads but I suspect that's just App Store watermarking because they differ in so many places. Maybe someone here on HN knows the real story though.

Nope, no watermarking. My third download worked and I got an InstallESD.dmg md5 of b5d3753c62bfb69866e94dca9336a44a. Googling for that it seems to match what the torrent sites are serving up for the Gold Master build.

It's odd that I had two failed downloads in a row... Either an app store bug or this MBP is maybe having memory issues or something. It's odd because I haven't had any issues like that before, and I tax it quite a bit.

Or maybe this was just Apple's way of making me rationalize a MacBook Air purchase :-)

Reboot didn't help for me, unfortunately. Still failed out with the same error after a minute or so.

Word of warning just by chance my OSX hard disk was corrupted today. Luckily I had my Snow Leopard OSX disk so that I could use the disk utility to check what the problem was and attempt a repair. I had to reformat but it has made me think that keeping the disk around would be a good idea.

Apparently it's not too hard to make a bootable Lion DVD:

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/18/make-an-os-x-lion-boot-d...

I suspect that Apple would suggest that that was what Time Machine was for.

But physical media is still nice. Supposedly you'll be able to buy a USB install for $69 next month.

clap clap clap

You're right. They're destroying people's information to make a few hundred dollars. Do you distill rain water because of the fluoride as well?

Things break, it's unfortunate.

wat

I'm sorry, I have genuinely no idea what you're talking about.

Time machine is free. Apple isn't making money from that. You're thinking of Time Capsule, which is an external disk people often use with time machine.

I have given up on TM because it chews up my external drives at an alarming rate. I have had three hard drives die in the last 2 years because of TM. My other drives of the same brand that didn't have TM are just fine still. Either I have extremely bad luck with WD drives, or time machine is just not a reliable backup mechanism (I'm inclined to think the latter). Plus, the drives have to be HFS formatted which is also a con for me (that I am willing to live with in exchange for a reliable backup solution).

Is anyone else experiencing these kinds of problems with TM?

I've only been using Time Machine for about a year but my hard drive just crashed last week, conveniently three days after my MbP's hard drive. I've found it useful for restoring individual files, but I wish there was a way to customize the frequency of backups- plugging it in once a week is hardly ideal.

You can change the frequency, but you have to use an external app. There are a number of ones out there, for example: http://timesoftware.free.fr/timemachineeditor/ or http://www.klieme.com/TimeMachineScheduler.html

Note: I can't remember which one I tried so I can't recommend one, these are just quick ones I found off Google. I do remember as I used them that despite scheduling it in the App, time machine would incorrectly display "Next Backup: Tomorrow" or something like that.

I've had the same drive hooked up to time-machine now for the last year and a half if not longer and haven't had any issues what so ever.

It is a custom enclosure with a standard Seagate hard drive. Works wonderfully.

A small word of warning: I mostly use Windows 7 on my MacBook Air, but I decided to upgrade anyway. Unfortunately for me, the upgrade rendered my Bootcamp partition inaccessible (it doesn't show up in startup disks, and does show up in Disk Utility, but cannot be repaired).

Wow, thanks for the warning. I was just about to upgrade. I have an entire drive devoted to Boot Camp I'll probably be okay? It looks like there is one error situation detected during install:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4649

The anandtech review implies that boot camp assistant works and the boot camp drivers (a separate download) are now 4.0 but I can't actually find them, I assume the apple updater has them.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4485/back-to-the-mac-os-x-107-...

I suspect it is probably because Lion adds a new Recovery Partition, and when it redoes the partition layout it doesn't take the boot camp partition into account. That's kind of a scary oversight.

Many other people have had success, but so far there doesn't seem to be a common thread between the people who've had failures.

i installed the developer preview of os-x lion some weeks ago. following are my first impressions. let me know how you think...

performance: at first i thought lions performance sucks, but mdworker and kextcache processes are re-initializing spotlight right after installation which slows down the system and heats up the cpu. after two hours of fan-noise and heat the system seems to be fine and is running smoothly now.

mail: the new mail is great. finally email conversations are grouped. it features a new 3-column view, which imho is sub-optimal when working with loads of emails. fortunately the classic view also supports grouped conversations. i like

launchpad: well guys. this is a super use-less feature, as i setup my application folder as a dock-folder anyhow. for me at least there's no need to have an ios view of apps on a desktop computer or notebook.

mission control: this actually combines spaces and expose. unfortunately it adds nothing to my personal workflow as i rarely use those features.

calendar: the new calendar is actually a huge disappointment as i'm working with mutliple calendars of different people (synched via google calendar). it's not possible anymore to permanently display the list of calendars in a sidebar. this suxx big time. besides that the switching of calendars with the new dropdown kind of list is totally unreliable and the calendars don't seem to update properly when working with multiple windows :( i'll probably have to switch to google calendar or something else. any recommendations for a good calendar desktop app for os-x which can handle multiple gcal accounts?

trim support for ssd: finally there's trim support for ssd drives. this is totally overdue since windows and linux support this since quite a long time. i know that this is more a long term performance feature, but actually hoped that this would increase my ssd performance. unfortunately the xbench results did not get any better. sidenode: i'm not really convinced from the ssd performance under os-x (maybe it's the apple ssds which aren't that good, but colleagues have much much better results with linux).

versions the integrated document versioning is quite cool and i'm sure this will save my * at some point in the future :)

conclusion well as stated above there are some good things about lion like mail, versions and trim support, but also several downsides. i actually expected more and am a bit disappointed. there are also some other features, like fullscreen support for apps and airdrop which i didnt really test yet...

cheers

re:calendar for multiple gcal accounts Try BusyCal though I am in a similar situation and havn't found a good fit.

thx will try it out

BusyCal is what I'm recommending to all of our Mac-based employees and what I use on my personal machines to handle dozens of calendars across several Google & Google Apps accounts. +1 recommendation for BusyCal; absolutely worth the license.

Fantastical is the best I've found, with a superset of features from all the others.

will try that one out as well, thx.

> mail: the new mail is great. finally email conversations are grouped.

Is it grouped with the email you sent as well? Because shitty threaded convos (all mails you received) have been available since forever ago.

Yes, but by default, no.

There's a button called "show related messages" which will show your replies, forwards, and whatnot in the list.

Now that is an improvement worth upgrading for, if you can show GMail-style convos with the whole back-and-forth.

You can command-click any number of mailboxes to group them, and it threads them as it should.

Wonderful feature.

It already works in 10.6

TRIM support was added in 10.6.8: http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/27/mac-os-x-10-6-8-brings-t...

It's available globally. At least if I'm allowed to extrapolate from {US, UK, Sweden}.

Doesn't seem to be available for me (UK, 13:45).

UK also, 13:47, it's downloading

If you search for "Lion" it's there. It doesn't seem to be under "Featured" yet.

+germany

downloading now...

+France. Downloading now...

Canada too. Downloading...

Does Lion "reset" the file system? I have stuff like Perl and Python that I installed myself. Some stuff resides in /usr/local/bin and other stuff in ~/Library/.

Was wondering if that all got wiped on the install?

All my /usr/local remained intact on upgrade.

I believe this was the standard behavior with an upgrade install on previous OS X releases, and it got moved out of the way when you did an "archive and install."

I couldn't even find an option to archive and install on Lion, does it even exist? I would rather have done that and gotten rid of all the cruft I've accumulated.

I was thinking of the cruft as well. But don't want to lose my iTunes settings etc.

Anyone been running Xcode on Lion? I've kind of ignored the seeds & would like to know if it's safe to update my dev workstation, or wait until after a few updates?

Lion + Xcode 4.1 GM crashes a few times per day while doing C++ coding on a fairly small project. Besides that, I do not see Xcode 4.1 in the App Store yet, so it's currently only available with a Mac Developer Account.

If it is anything like last time, you will have to get this new OS for the next version for Xcode. Which sucks, since you already have to update itunes and your devices. It is turning into a few hours project to update everything.

Xcode 4.1 has now been released in MAS.

Anyone have any idea on how I can redeem the "free Lion upgrade" on my newly bought Mac?

Looks like you can punch your serial here:

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore?...

Apparently I cant and the links arent available for India right now. http://www.apple.com/in/macosx/uptodate/

You can now get a Mac Mini with discrete graphics. If the hard drive can be replaced -- unlike the iMac -- I'd be tempted to do a Mac Mini with discrete graphics, 8 GB ram and an SSD.

Apple now offers a SSD option, but it's a $600 upgrade.

I have been a Windows user since I started using computers. I am thinking of purchasing a Macbook Air. As a young programmer (going into fifth year of college), would anyone recommend this laptop?

Only if ultra light weight and portability are primary concerns. A standard MacBook Pro is a better value otherwise, IMO.

After using my first MBP for a while, I'm kind of regretting getting the 15 inch. With the high-res screen, and as long as you have good eyes, the 13 seems just as functional and more portable. I love using my girlfriend's. My two cents, if Nemesis ends up going with a MBP.

There is no option to upgrade to high-res(higher-res) screen on the 13 inch. I think I am pretty sure on that. Just the plain 1280x800.

You are correct. Sorry about that.

I sold my older 15in MBP to get a unibody 13MBP. I lasted 4 months before selling the 13 to go back to 15in (thank goodness for high resell values.) The little bit of extra space just makes it so much easier to juggle open windows and see data from different programs while working. People think I'm a major multitasker with they see all my open windows, but really I'm working on one task with lots of varied inputs. I'm a little worried that Lion might take this away from me, with its emphasis on single window apps.

Note that the Airs have much more manageable screen real-estate than the 13" MBP: the 11" already has a higher resolution than the 13" MBP, and the 13" MBA has the same resolution as a non-HD 15" MBP.

I love my 13" MBP. It drives a large monitor when I need it to, and the rest of the time it's very portable and comfortable. I forget the screen is small, honestly.

Lion download progress: about 45%

The only big drawback is it ain't cheap. You can even run Windows on if you really want.

Having an external DVD drive to install it is advised though, it is really difficult to do it with a USB drive.

Apple EFI drivers suck. I've been trying to get windows installed on my MBP17" where I replaced the optical drive with a SSD and it's been pure pain.

You'll need the superdrive in particular most likely.

yep I had the same issue on my MBP13, they dont let you boot off USB basically. Sucks.

If you open the Installer.app package, you'll find a DMG in there. You can then partition your USB drive/internal hard drive/external hard drive with a 5 GB partition, and restore the DMG onto it via Disk Utility.

You boot from the partition, and after installation, delete it and extend your primary partition (if you partitioned your internal hard drive).

The biggest drawback, by far, is the insanely low RAM. Anything less than 8GB is unusable for me, and I certainly can't be the only one.

Surely you're exaggerating. 8GB is necessary for a dev machine where you're going to be intentionally straining it. Most laptops nowadays come with 4GB. You're seriously saying those are "unusable" for you? What are you doing that requires 8GB of memory? Running multiple instances of SQL Server, AutoCAD, Visual Studio, and 2 or 3 games simultaneously?

Oh, some of our software barely compiles with 4GB of memory (unless you have enough time). E.g. large finite state transducers dumped as a big array of structs in C tend to blow up the compiler ;).

Also, some people tend to work with large data sets or problems that just require lots of memory. E.g. I work on language generation, and generally the more memory the better. For me 8GB is the minimum for doing serious work, and most machines that I use have >= 8GB and <= 64GB of memory.

So, someone asks "why would anyone need 8GB of memory". I describe one situation where I need that amount of memory. Can the downvoter please explain why this comment is objectionable?

Edit: my question is not rhetorical, I really would like to know.

Can't say i found anything objectionable to your comment (while I'm not doing that kind of stuff, in my day-to-day web development I have to juggle with virtual machines and 8GB RAM is also a bare requirements to be able to work correctly without the machine swapping to death), so I put you back above threshold.

I didn't downvote you but I would guess it was the hyperbolic wording of "insanely low" and "unusable".

How is it hyperbole? If the machine can not support the workloads it will be put under, how is it not unusable for him?

Also not a downvoter, but it's hyperbole because he didn't qualify it by saying that he has very particular needs. It would be like saying, "the Ford Excursion is an unusable piece of junk due to the lack of interior space...I can't even fit my 42 foster kids in it for a trip to Disneyland."

That's cool, surely that's a niche situation though. People deving mobile apps and websites (most people here) can do fine with 4GB. I do think the low end MB Air at 2GB is pushing it though.

Yep, sounds like you need something heftier than a super-light laptop for that sort of task. Hopefully you have already provisioned thusly.

My new laptop has 16GB of RAM. Last night, I was using 12GB of it. I was running one VM with 4gb of ram, and the rest was taken up with my browser (where I was exploring a vulnerability involving a massive number of objects), my debugger, and IDA.

8GB will work for me (that's all I have at work) but it definitely makes my life hard.

Honest question: Are there any ultra-lightweight laptops that handle 8GB?

The Dell Adamo (their answer to the MBA, which was nicer than the original, just way too expensive) did a couple years back, but that's now dead. Not sure what else is out there in the space, but just about any newer laptop with upgradable RAM can do 8GB -- almost all will support 4GB in each of the (standard) two banks.

I believe most in this category only have a single bank. I think the MBA actually has zero -- it's soldered to the motherboard.

lenovo x220 can take 8

The (now old) 11" MacBook Air is the best laptop I've ever owned.

That doesn't say much without any information about which other laptops you've owned...

From personal experience: no.

I bought a MacBook Air in January. It's very ideal for travelling, due to its small size and weight. However, it squeezes nearly the same amount of pixels as a 13.3" MacBook Pro in a 11.8" display. So, if your eyes are a bit tired, it becomes annoying to read code. Also, the CPU is much slower (even after this refresh) than the MacBook Pro. If you use compiled languages or do a lot of data processing, this is annoying.

I returned my Air to my Apple Reseller recently, and purchased a MacBook Pro (as I had before). It's fast and a readable screen.

Since you are a programmer, you'll probably enjoy a MacBook, given OS X's UNIX underpinnings.

From my personal experience, I liked coding Python with Textmate on a MBA, but not Objective-C with Xcode. Py/Text didn't take up much space and was easy to work with. Obj-C/Xcode demand lots of real-estate space, so the tiny screen was a hinderance.

So I'd advise that if you have a language that's 'tiny' and a minimalist editor, you'll probably do fine on a MBA. If the language and editor take up lots of space, I'd stay away and go with something that has a bigger screen (exception if you plan on using an external monitor).

I am mainly an Android developer and use Eclipse, which is by no means light...So I guess, in this case, I should stay away from the MBA?

No. You'll be fine. Possibly, you'll have screen estate issues with the 11" air, but that's about the only issue with Eclipse you'll have. The SSD will severely speed things up.

A good test would be to try out the MBA's resolution on your current display, and work with Eclipse in it. 1366x768 for the 11 inch, and 1440x900 for the 13.

Fonts and interface chrome always seem to take up a tiny bit more space on OS X. Not usually an issue but I'd take it into account if, on Windows, a given res is barely usable.

I have a 13-inch air; the pixels are tiny. If you try 1440x900 on a large monitor, bear in mind smaller fonts may not be using once you shrink down to laptop size.

Apple stores seem pretty liberal about machine use (notwithstanding the guy being prosecuted for installing webcam upload software on a store's machines..) - maybe you could download Mac Eclipse to a USB key and try it out on a machine?

The biggest issue with IDE is screen real estate, rather than performance. While eclipse is an absolute dog, 4GB RAM and an SSD should be sufficient to work with it. The painful part is the surface eaten by the various panes and bars of the IDE.

Call the apple store, tell them this, you will be able to install it or they will on a floor model to show you.

They're super keen on stuff like this.

FYI, the 13in MBA has the exact same screen resolution as the stock 15in MBP, and the 11in MBA is comparable to the 13in MBP (different ratio though), so both models can basically show the same amount of stuff on the screen (unless you were preferring something like a large iMac for XCode).

YMMV but I'm using an Air as my main dev machine at the moment. I bought it just because I need a mac for a few things but I seem to have ended up using it all the time. I'm used to having very small laptops though. I would say you definitely need the 128GB version, I originally partitioned mine into two 64GB partitions (I was going to put Ubuntu on the other which turned out to be very hard, but that's another story) and found that the 64GB filled up from just the OS plus the applications I use for development.

Right now I've got it plugged into a huge cinema display (which I have on loan for 6 months, it's very nice) but I have also used it quite a lot as a laptop.

I'm mostly writing Python here, so no long compiles. I imagine that would be a killer if you were working on C++ projects...

I'd wait a year till you graduate, if you still need to buy a computer, buy the 17in and add an SSD if you are going to be doing programming, otherwise either the 13in air or 15in MBP will work fine if you need one NOW.

The 13in MBP is pretty low end without upgrading many of the components.

MBPs have tremendous resale value (especially the higher size models), so don't feel so bad about spending a few extra bucks on them.

Good lord, no. Stay away from 17", you might as well be lugging a desktop around. 13" is the sweet spot for me, MBP or MBA depending primary on memory needs and workload.

The new MacBook Airs are two times faster than the last generation MacBook Airs. They are also faster than the high end 17" MacBook Pros from 2010. [1] They are about as fast as the low end 13" MacBook Pro.

-------------

1. http://electricpig.co.uk/2011/07/20/2011-macbook-air-benchma...

2. http://www.primatelabs.ca/geekbench/mac-benchmarks/

Nice update, but I hate how they changed spaces. No grid possible anymore?! I relied heavily on switching between spaces in a non-linear way.

I've been using the developer previews, including the GM, and OpenGL performance seems to be better. Haven't run any proper tests, but my 3D stuff does seem zippier in most cases. Still, I'll probably wait until XCode functions okay before overwriting my Snow Leopard install.

No full opengl 3.0 support. I'm a bit disappointed

Lion fully supports OpenGL 3.2 Core Profile, but not Compatibility Profile. If you're checking the version in OpenGL Extensions Viewer, get v4 and change to Core profile.

Hmm, my two-finger swipe to move back/forward in browser history via Magic Mouse seems to invoke Spaces/Mission Control now. Anyone know how to fix that? Or what the new gesture for browser nav might be? I don't see anything helpful in System Prefs for that.

Not working for me at the moment (Error: 100). Anyone else the same?

Edit: In Australia

I'm also getting that error (with Canadian App Store).

Working fine for me, just started the download. 1 hour remaining...

Edit: I'm in the US.

Took me a few tries, but downloading now (in Aus).

Bleh, GM users can't download it (there's a newer version installed(!?))

c'est la vie.

I'm running the GM and am downloading it right now. I did get a message saying something like "you already have a newer version of lion installer (1.04) installed, do you still want to download this?

It looks like I didn't have to pay either, I guess the app store thinks I already bought Lion, and I'm just re downloading.

How did you do that? I can’t click the button.

Go to the Lion 'page' in the App Store, and click install while holding the Option key.

If you have the GM installed there's no need to download the new released version. The build numbers are the same.

came here to find this out myself.

that means that crash I've been seeing is TotalFinder's fault.

> there's a newer version installed(!?)

Yup: the GM is release 511. The Mac App Store release is 491, for some reason. (It downloads and installs an update that brings it to 511 after you restart it, though.)

Does anyone know if there's a way to download it on one mac, and somehow transfer it to another so that one doesn't have to download it multiple times through the mac app store?

Yep. It's covered briefly in the linked review, but the download just puts an item in your Applications folder that can be copied to whatever and installed wherever. The license agreement even okays it for a few machines, I believe.

Thank you very much!

Does anyone know of a scanner software that supports 8ish year old scanners? (epson in particular)

Since rosetta is not supported any longer, lots of scanners will not be working..

If you have to update, the newer scansnaps are fantastic for feed scanners. Worth every dollar of the 300-500 price tag.

Vuescan supports a lot of scanners:

http://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/vuescan.htm#supported

I never got around to upgrading from 10.5 - does anyone know if there's a way to upgrade straight to this new release? (Guessing probably not.)

I just installed it now. I run a dual screen iMac at work, but a 13 inch MB Pro at home. I think it will be a lot more useful with the macbook.

I'm not going to buy it unless I can buy a DVD with OS X Lion on it. Too much to transfer over a poor bandwidth mobile connection.

You'll be able to get a USB stick with it on from next month apparently though at $69 it's fairly steep.

If you can make it to an Apple store you can apparently download it from there. http://9to5mac.com/2011/07/19/apple-retail-has-3-lion-instal...

Anyone that has it, will it fit on a 4g usb stick or should I buy an 8 before I get home?

Disk Utility refused to write the image to a 4 GB stick, complaining about limited space. An 8 GB stick worked just fine.

Looks like its a 4.18g uncompressed disk image actually.

It's out in the UAE too. Really excited for this. Can't wait to install it.

Not being a Mac user, is this significant? Like when Windows is released?

It's not as huge a leap as Windows XP to 7 (or Vista I guess ...), but it does bring around some improvements that people are going to be excited about.

EDIT: I'm wrong. The release is downloading. This is indeed a very big deal but I'm really surprised they haven't made more noise about it.

Yes, it is, but about 1/2 as much so? They release new versions every 2 years or so, and most people upgrade.

For most users no, but for $30 its kind of hard to make excuses not to upgrade.

I'm a huge fan of the ASLR and sandboxing changes so security wise there are good reasons to upgrade.

What sandbox changes did they make? Is that the app store apps can't open documents without a user selecting them in a file chooser thing?

I think that is unsigned apps require the extra dialogs/etc...

http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Securi...

That has the most info, i'm digging through the changes.

I feel that if you're a big user of the Mac native apps then this is well worth the $30. Fullscreen mode is a nice thing to have too. In the end, I don't think you can lose for $30.

I really wish there was a way to name spaces in Mission Control

It's available on Indian store too. I guess this is global.

I'm a bit bummed out that i have to either buy multiple copies of the upgrade, or figure out how to enable my account across my wife's machine and the other machines i have. :(

I was quite liking the unrestricted installs for 30$

I read the licensing terms and you are still allowed to install the one copy you buy across as many computers as you own (for personal use). For business use you can install it on one computer that multiple users have access to (e.g. a shared workstation/library) or you can install it on all the computers that one employee uses (e.g. desktop + laptop).

So I guess it's more of a technical/sign-in limitation than a licensing limitation.

As far as I know, Mac OS X has always been sold with a single machine license (unless you bought the Family multi-pack).

As far as i recall, Snow Leopard was unlimited installs, that or i did toss in the extra 10-20$ for unlimited installs, i don't recall exactly (i do definitely recall buying a family pack for Leopard).

Regardless, where is that option now?

Edit: what the hell? -1 for saying that i prefer the family pack?

> As far as i recall, Snow Leopard was unlimited installs

The license was for a single machine. If you wanted to install it on multiple machine, you were supposed to get a family pack (5 machines).

Lion is single-user (since it's tied to an iTunes Store account), and up to 5 machines at the same time (all machines on which the account is active).

That can’t be it. The App Store license allows you to install apps on all Macs you own or control (that would include his wife’s Mac), i.e. an unlimited number of Macs. That’s for personal use.

> The App Store license allows you to install apps on all Macs you own or control

yeah I saw that in the Ars review. But I think your iTunes account can only be active on 5 machines, so you'd have to burn the dmg to a disk and install it on the supplementary machines (or remove auth)

> that would include his wife’s Mac

iTunes can switch accounts trivially, so that's not a problem: open his account on his wife's mac, update the OS, done.

iTunes does activations. The Mac App Store does not. You log into the Mac App Store with your Apple ID, that has nothing to do with iTunes. It wouldn’t make any sense to allow you to only activate five Macs for the App Store, given the license.

edit: Hey dude who downvoted, I made a factual claim. I have no problem with downvoting wrong factual claims but if you do you should at least clarify what is wrong.

I did not downvote you, but you're wrong all the same: MAS is a frontend to a sub-section of the iTunes Store. Similar to the iOS AppStore (which is a part of iTunes on computers, but a separate store on iPhones or iPads). In fact, if you have a tracing firewall you can see it send requests to itunes's servers.

And as far as I know MAS does the exact same thing as iTunes: you can authorize an account on 5 machines at a time.

I most certainly wasn't trying to make any claims about the technical infrastructure. Sure, MAS and iTunes use the same, no question, I wasn't trying to deny that. But are there activations? That's the question. iTunes has all this UI for managing activations, the MAS has not. You can't activate computers, you can't deactivate computers. Then there's the different license. It wouldn't make any sense if you had a limited number of activations given the license.

I see no reason to believe why there should be activations in the MAS. Using the same infrastructure doesn't mean anything.

Would burning it to a DVD and doing a clean install still require Apple accounts? I hope not.

http://www.informationweek.com/byte/howto/personal-tech/desk...

It doesn’t require any verification.

stick it on a thumb drive and sneaker-net over the installer to your wife's machine. there's no need to access iTunes during install.

Snow Leopard’s license did not allow for unlimited installs. One machine. That’s it. It has always been possible (not legal, though) to install Snow Leopard on as many machines as you wanted to. (That has been the case for every version of OS X since the beginning.) It has also always been possible to install it without even owning Leopard – even though the license didn’t allow you to. You could buy the family pack for a few dollars more but that also wasn’t unrestricted. It allowed for five users.

As for Lion, you can just log in with whatever account you want in the Mac App Store. That’s it. It’s not a problem. Logging out won’t disable any apps. You can download Lion as often as you want. (If you don’t want to use the Mac App Store you can just extract the installer DMG from the Lion app and use it to install Lion on all machines you own. This also saves you from having to download Lion twice.) The installer won’t phone home to verify whether you are allowed to install.

The license allows you to install Lion on any computer you own or control for personal use. I assume that includes your wife’s machine.

For business use you can install Lion on all machines a single person uses or on one machine several people use.

Launch the Mac App Store. Sign out. Sign in with the Apple ID that you purchased Lion with. Install Lion. It's really that simple.

You can install your one bought copy on "any number of Macs you own" plus "two more copies within a VM on each machine."

You can install this on all your machines. Just log into the mac appstore. It's like iOS not like iTunes: They don't limit the number of machines.

just installed on a second mac, notice that airdrop is nowhere to be seen (though it's on the GM).

It's in the Lion features page, so it's probably there. But not all models are supported:

    AirDrop

    supports the following Mac models:

    * MacBook Pro (Late 2008 or newer)
    * MacBook Air (Late 2010 or newer)
    * MacBook (Late 2008 or newer)
    * iMac (Early 2009 or newer)
    * Mac mini (Mid 2010 or newer)
    * Mac Pro (Early 2009 with AirPort Extreme card, or Mid 2010)

dammit, my mbp2,2 apparently doesn't make the cut. too bad. will have to go buy a new one :)

So... alright. Who's going first?

Been running the GM seed for quite a while now. Everything has gone smoothly.

Any idea on how to upgrade from the GM seed to final. It says I have a newer version and can't install it.

They're exactly the same version actually, if you have GM you already have the Lion availiable on the Mac App Store now.

However, by pressing Option (Alt) when clicking the Buy button, you can download Lion again for free if you have GM installed.

"Preparing to install. Your computer will restart automaticly."

Wait - what? Didn't they say update without restart? I told all my friends how cool it is - the first OS updating itself without a restart.

....

"Click Restart to install Mac OS X."

Okay.jpg

They never said that.

It was a bit more subtle. I think the point was, that you don't have to restart your machine to begin the installation.

That's new? The Windows and Linux camps have had that for >6 years.

If your kernel is updated, you need to reload the kernel in some manner. Linux has kexec, but requires you to shut down services and reload the kernel nonetheless.

But you can certainly start the upgrade. You can perform the majority of it, in fact.

you're right, i misunderstood it.

What would the point of that be, really? The one time every two years you upgrade your OS, you don't have to reboot, saving 15 seconds a year?

Way back (2000? 2001?) when I was solely a windows guy, a friend was helping me install a linux box (showeq...). I can't remember the distro he used, but I do remember starting from an old windows box and installing linux, installing the applications and so forth. Two hours into playing with the new system, my friend asked if I'd noticed how many times we'd rebooted during the installation and setup - none. We installed from scratch to a functioning system without ever rebooting.

Of course, you want a reboot with any major upgrade to make sure that your system works from a cold start, but it was very cool at the time to have a working system from scratch with no reboot...

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