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Comment by xyzelement | Hacker News Reader

I don't know why you got down voted, because the point you're making is correct. Even having come from the USSR into the US as a kid, I can appreciate the contrast.

The problem we have in the west is that we we talk about problems and tradeoffs in abstract. For example, many people who argue that it would be good to defund the police have never lived in a situation where daily life was dangerous due to crime. Similarly, people who argue against pipelines rarely have an understanding of what it's like when there's no fuel or heat in the winter.

These issues are complex and there are two sides, but it does seem to me that the "hardship" side of the things is being under-valued and under-feared because it's outside of people's realm of experience.

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Nice, diplomatic way of writing 'out of touch with reality techies'

> For example, many people who argue that it would be good to defund the police have never lived in a situation where daily life was dangerous due to crime.

Most people who argue for defunding the police live in a situation in which daily life is dangerous... due to the police. Who often harass them, lock them up, or even shoot them dead.

> Similarly, people who argue against pipelines rarely have an understanding of what it's like when there's no fuel or heat in the winter.

You're attacking a straw man. (Almost) nobody is arguing against having _any_ pipelines, whatsoever, anywhere. In the US, however, there is a custom of laying pipelines which are shoddily constructed, tend to burst and spill frequently, and are laid in along highly dangerous paths where they may contaminate drinking water sources and other sensitive locations.

And - people who argue for such pipelines rarely have an understanding of what drinking water mixed with petroleum does to you...

> Most people who argue for defunding the police live in a situation in which daily life is dangerous... due to the police. Who often harass them, lock them up, or even shoot them dead.

This is obviously a thorny topic but I think you're wrong. For example here in NYC, there has been a huge spike in crime and shootings, of which black people have been the most common victims. The number of people murdered this way dwarfs the number of people shot by the police in total.

When people are in actual fear of their lives, it's not the police they are worried about. And this has manifested itself in the election.

The democratic mayoral primary we just had, the black and latin neighborhoods heavily went for Eric Adams, the former cop. While the white/gentrifying areas were more heavily for the defund-the-police candidate.

I am curious your perspective? Are you actually someone who lives in the hood and has a fear of your life on daily basis, and fear cops more than criminals?

Or are you more in the "I read about this stuff" bucket, and if so, how does the above fit into your perspective.

> I think you're wrong... in NYC, there has been a huge spike in crime and shootings... number of people murdered this way dwarfs the number of people shot by the police

1. I talked about police violence in general, not just shooting. Shooting is the more extreme case of violence.

2. There are crime problems elsewhere in the world - like that Netherlands issue in the story - and yet, the police essentially never shoot people unless shot at first. Or, you know what, maybe it's once every few years in the entire country.

3. Even if shootings were rare, the fact that the police _may_ just shoot you, means you are in danger of your life whenever you are in contact with the police. And the police - in many/most places - expect to be treated as those who have the power to decide whether you live or die. This is especially true since these killings are often arbitrary, i.e. it is not the most dangerous and violent people in the most suspicious of situations that get shot, or otherwise killed by police.

4. I don't live in NYC. Can you give some citation for the "dwarfing" part?

> When people are in actual fear of their lives, it's not the police they are worried about.

> And this has manifested itself in the election.

You mean the mayor elections in NYC? I don't live in the US, so I'm not well-versed at city-level politics at all. I basically know Yang ran and failed...

Anyway, from my experience and knowledge, that's usually/very often not true - depending on the level of social consciousness of course. In neighborhoods or cities where the state is perceived as being controlled by a rich and powerful minority, especially if it's mostly of a different color or ethnicity; and when the state is uncaring and oppressive towards you and your surrounding society - crime is perceived being to a great extent the result neglect and even active encouragement and collusion of the state and the regular and political police with criminal elements. In the US the political police would be some of the three-letter agencies I suppose.

This is actually a crisis faced by Palestinian society in Israel these days, which would merit an article of its own, but this is just a comment.

> I am curious your perspective? Are you actually someone who lives in the hood and has a fear of your life on daily basis, and fear cops more than criminals?

Well, first of all, I'm afraid of cops because of what they do to me and other people during popular protests or just demonstrations. I was standing next to a person when this cop grabbed his head and banged it against the curb. Cops stole my coat once as they were hauling me to be detained/arrested (although I'm not sure whether one of them took it or whether they just threw it away). Cops almost ran me over a few times, with motorcycles and with horses. Cops fired a stun grenade into a crowd right next to me just a couple of months ago. etc. etc.

I lived in a "semi-hood" for a few years; I was never fearful for my life, because the society I live in is much less violent than in the US, but I was still sometimes fearful. I was always more afraid of the cops than of groups of young men on a street corner. Of course, if I were not from the privileged ethnic group, i.e. if I were of Arab/Middle-Eastern rather than European descent, I would have been _really_ afraid of cops and probably even less worried about people in my neighborhood.

Your post is jumping all over the place but I want to comment on two points:

1. You're responding to a post that said "most people who argue for defunding the police have never lived in a place without police where they had to live in fear of crime". In your response, you confirmed that you're such a person. You never lived in a dangerous/violent place but somehow you take your safety for granted and see police as extraneous.

2. You asked for a citation of the fact that the recent spike in crime has taken more black lives than the police? To be frank your lack of awareness of the numbers (ie the actual crux of the matter) is pretty damning. If you don't have the command of the numbers and the scale of the issue, you're not in good position to suggest policy.

I can dig up the data if you don't believe me but from memory: the number of unarmed people shot to death by police in the US is a double-digit number across all races, with about 2/3rd of them being white. So if we said "30 unarmed black people were shot to death by police in the US in 2020" that would be an upper bound. (to be clear this number includes unarmed people who were nonetheless violent, but its ok)

In contrast, there were 7,484 Black homicide victims per year in 2019, which is before the latest spike in crime.

That's a ratio of ~250/1 using the most conservative assumptions (it's more like 400/1 probably)

> the number of unarmed people shot to death by police in the US is a double-digit number across all races

It is often a quadruple-digit number. Here's an example for 2016:

https://www.newsweek.com/how-many-americans-do-cops-kill-eac...

and 2019:

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/05/policekillings/

it seems you are not quite familiar with how the US police treats people.

I am talking about number of unarmed people that are killed by police, which is what falls into the category of something to be concerned about.

Your numbers munge everyone killed by the cops, which is stupid. "X pointed a gun at a cop so the cops shot him" does not translate into "cops are bad" in my mind.

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