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Comment by the-dude | Hacker News Reader

They are wise enough to only use these weapons in their own conflicts, which do not include me.

This attitude is so infuriating. "Their own conflicts" ->

https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/item/aantal-vergismoorden-sti...

and that's before we get into those cases where people were slaughtered in front of their spouses and children (and who sometimes were slaughtered right along with them).

Massive shoot outs with automatic weapons on the highways, in the cities and on one occasion on a small beach near Amsterdam.

If it doesn't include you then you are lucky. But it could be you, tomorrow.

Most of the population voted for this. Our public broadcaster is running a very succesful series ( Mocro Maffia, https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8810204/ ) on it.

And most of those progressive voters live in the areas which are affected ( Amsterdam, Randstad in general ).

And if they did not vote 'progressive', they voted VVD ( neoliberal, keep slashing funding until it is bare functional : our police ).

> Most of the population voted for this.

Ok, I think you've just disqualified yourself from further discussion. I'm not going to cross the HN guidelines to tell you off.

I would appreciate if you formulated precise : you are disqualifying me.

What is the point of your comment? Why comment at all?

The point is that if you believe that false equivalences are going to win you this argument then I'm done arguing with you. People vote in elections based on all kinds of issues, they do not vote for summary executions of journalists.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

Giving off some heavy sealion vibes here

As someone from Scheveningen, your attitude is disheartening. It's a very "I've got mine" attitude and in these times I'd hope we band together to knock this detrimental activity on the head before we get to a point like Mexican cartels openly killing police, politicians, as well as journalists. Those of us in the Randstad are most definitely affected by this and other drug crimes, and growing up in the achterhoek in the 89s I noticed they were not unaffected. I've never lived in Groningen, but I cannot imagine your city is less affected than Enschede or Zutphin, both of which struggled through the 90s with criminal drug gangs. Just because you have not been affected personally, does not make it okay, and I suspect that attitude is why others are unwilling to continue the conversation—you've made your mind up and we can't convince you. But as a typical Dutch person, I speak my mind regardless of the threat of being banned.

I lived in Enschede from 1993 to 2002 and can't recall any 'struggles'. I do remember another incident though.

According to wikipedia, the number of mistaken identity murders is very low. Less than 1 per year.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_criminele_liquidatie...

For perspective, the number of people who die from lightning strikes is about 2 per year.

Oh ok, that's fine then.

There have been at least two innocent people murdered because they got the wrong person.

Because drive-by shootings that kill innocent, uninvolved people are not a thing?

> Because drive-by shootings that kill innocent, uninvolved people are not a thing?

They really aren’t a thing.

Certainly not in the Netherlands. Even in the US, it’s an exceptionally rare cause of death of no significance at all.

> They really aren’t a thing.

They really are in the UK.

> cause of death of no significance at all

Of course, someone's needless death is of no significance. You have probably never heard of John Donne, but:

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

I've been out of the country for a few years but ... are you telling me that drive-by shootings have become a serious problem in the UK? Last I checked shootings of any kind were extremely rare. I would imagine drive-by shootings would therefore be so vanishingly rare that you could only really say they were "a thing" insofar as they have taken place there at some point, not as any sort of significant consideration when discussing drugs policy.

They are not rare now - and they have always happened. There is a huge amount of gang-warfare in the UK using guns and knives (just look at London, Birmingham and Manchester) and it spills over to bystanders.

And maybe look up "county lines", which is corrupting children, and spreading the drug trade, and violence, to even small towns.

I am not against the use of drugs, and have used some at one point or another myself. But it is delusional to think that so long as drug use is criminalised, criminal gangs will not use extreme violence.

Between March 2018 and March 2019, there were 32 gun homicides in the whole of the UK (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeand...). This is not consistent with the claim that drive-by shootings are a commonplace event. For comparison, there were, for example, 326 gun homicides in NYC alone in 2019 (https://efsgv.org/state/new-york/#:~:text=More%20than%20800%...)

But of course, 32 lives are insignificant. And you haven't talked about knife murders, or other violence, such as arson. But, what the hell, you have made your point - it doesn't matter about people getting killed, so long as the numbers are what you, in your wisdom, consider "low".

Also, this is 2021.

I was just addressing the claim that drive by shootings are something that happen with a significant frequency in the UK. They really aren't, as is obvious from the gun homicide stats.

The UK has one of the lowest rates of gun homicide in the world, so there is no reason to put 'low' in scare quotes in this context.

I'm not sure how representative pandemic stats would be, so it made sense to look at 2019. But I don't think you can seriously claim that drive by shootings have massively increased during the pandemic. Or at least, if you do claim this, it would be good to see a source.

It's 32 more than I would like for sure. But I don't think it's fair to talk about it like this is an everyday thing in the UK, particularly drive-by shootings which was the original point of contention.

I do agree with you on this part of your original reply, though:

> But it is delusional to think that so long as drug use is criminalised, criminal gangs will not use extreme violence.

It's definitely the case that criminalization of drug use is one of the root causes of a lot of violent crime in the UK. I imagine we'd have other social issues to contend with if we followed the path of making many drugs legal, but we'd certainly have less crime related to their trafficking and distribution.

> They are not rare now

Bollocks.

> 32 lives are insignificant

Nobody is saying this, anywhere.

More importantly, how many of those were innocent bystanders?

The point is not that people’s lives don’t matter, the point is that being caught in a drive by shooting is an absurd thing to be afraid of. You are more likely to get hit by lightening, or slip and hit your head in the shower.

I live in the Netherlands and in a good neighbourhood. One neighbouring house was blasted with heavy gun fire by a passing-by vehicle in an attempt to murder someone. So it’s not unheard of.

Also, in my previous apartment (Amsterdam), I’ve heard a gang execution (shots were fired) in the middle of the night.

I also know people who knows the DJ who was executed inside his car in the presence pf his family.

There’s a problem in the Netherlands.

Yeah, well said. I worked for a couple of years in the NL and didn't really feel as safe as I did in North London (which is saying something).

None of these are examples of ‘drive-by shootings that kill innocent, uninvolved people’.

I’m not saying that drug related violence is not a thing. It accounts for most of the gun related murders in the US, for example. Probably the same is the Netherlands.

However, innocent bystanders being at risk is not a thing.

lol you're on a roll dude, whatever.

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