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Comment by scarmig | Hacker News Reader

Is it generally easy for people to get permission from their day job to code on the side, without assigning all rights to the employer?

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This definitely depends on the employer and your geographical location; for example, in California, clauses like this are not legal except under certain conditions: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...

Of course, what you've said is true as far as it goes. But, consider this: if your employer has a product with any sort of search capability, your hobby/side project search engine then falls under the heading of things "relat(ing)... to the employer's business."

If you work for a big enough tech company, like, say, Google or Facebook, it's likely that a lot of things will "relate...to their business." And, note, too, that there's no requirement that you actually know that it relates to a part of your employer's business.

But they are fairly wide conditions it has to be "unrelated" to your day job.

OK if your a semi pro musician but a generic developer sie gig not so much.

Generally, your company only has rights to that if you've signed away your rights in your employment agreement. People have found success negotiating that out of the agreement by bringing it up.

Haven't tried it, but I'd be interested to try the argument that the company doesn't want to own my side projects, because liability. If I infringe someone else's copyrights on accident, but the company owns the work, then the company is liable, not me. Sweet protections of corporatization. :)

Or if I make a decisions on a side project that others want to "cancel" on twitter - that'll look bad to the company because legally theyre the owners, right? Wouldn't want the company being to blame for something I did.

Could you please explain to someone who is not from the US what is the justification behind this? It seems that it is not uncommon in the US that the employer has some rights to stuff you do in your free time - to me that seems as "reasonable" as "you sold me your house so your car is also mine now". What I do in my free time is none of my employer's business, why would they have any right to any of it?

It's because in the US the theory is that by hiring you salaried, they hire your mind and creative output, not a set labor. This means they pay you for anything your mind produces and then try to claim ownership for anything your mind produces whether you were in-office or not.

(this is usually not enforcable unless you actively build competing services)

That is the point of salaried jobs

It happens in Europe too. The rationale is that the employer gives you a lot of knowledge and tools which you could use to your own benefit... there are clear cases of abuse, some leading to litigation. I guess the employers want to defend themselves against IP theft basically.

What I normally do is ask for an agreement that projects unrelated to my employer's business is ok for me to work on, which I have always been able to get (sometimes they ask for authorization on a case-by-case basis, but usually it's just common sense).

> It happens in Europe too.

Does it really? I am from Europe and I have lived and worked in 3 EU countries, many of my friends have experience from other countries and I have never heard anyone mention this is. Obviously, my personal experience is limited. In what country do you live if I might ask?

Its very common the work normally has to be related.

> The rationale is that the employer gives you a lot of knowledge and tools which you could use to your own benefit

You also bring experience and knowledge to your employer that may benefit them while you're on holiday, or off sick, or even after you leave the company. Maybe we should send them a bill for these incidental benefits?

Because employment laws are based on old laws relating to "Masters and servants"

And European law is just the same.

Side note: It is depressing that the question winds up being asked this way (EDIT: while ignoring how depressing it is that it is an existing question in the first place) !

Instead it should be: "Is it generally easy for employers to get permission from their employees to be assigned all rights for code they write in private?"

This is just as depressing. Employers should have zero rights to code their employees write on their own time unless the employee is using employer specific IP / resources or creating a direct competitor. Needing to get permission should not even be a thing.

You're absolutely right, I had left this out for simplicity.

I read my contract and ensure you know what you are signing. If possible make them add a line about side projects off work hours.

Much harder to win in court when they knowingly added a line that lets you work on your own projects.

Most employers couldn't care less whether you cease exist once you leave the company, let alone track what you're up to.

As long as you're not competing directly with them just leave your day job just as your side project ramps up commercially, and it'll likely never be an issue.

Most are only worried you'll leverage their IP, insider knowledge, steal employers, or somehow cause reputational damage to them - they don't actually want your IP.

This is dangerous advice. Depending on your contract and jurisdiction, your code could belong to your employer.

Depends on the state. You definitely shouldn't use work computers or do it on work time.

These days, many companies are cool with it as long as you use your personal machine, on your own time, avoid using any work resources, etc. Usually it's baked into your employment contract.

Depends on jurisdiction. In places with reasonable copyright laws, you'd have to do weird things to end up in the “employer takes rights” situation in the first place.

I live and work in NY. It was standard in my contract with my former employer.

Code something they would have zero interest in (or would even actively avoid being associated with.)

Depends on your specific contract. Mine just bans me from machine learning related work.

Don't ask for permission if you can get away with begging for forgiveness ;)

This is one of those times that this adage applies. In the worst case, "begging for forgiveness" does not mean asking your manager for an exception. It means losing an expensive court case with your former employer about who owns your IP.

I intended to say "This is not one of those times that this adage applies."

I'm not sure if that's good advise in this case. The case where you don't get forgiveness in this case might mean that you put a ton of work into something and now much of it is owned by someone else.

i've never had a problem. but i'm not working for huge companies where the contract change would have to go through a legal department.

Move to California and stop worrying.

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