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Comment by yequalsx | Hacker News Reader

I bought my first Mac on Friday at the Mall of America. There's a Microsoft store right across from the Apple store. It was amazing to me how much more crowded the Apple store was. There were a lot of people at the Microsoft store but it was ridiculous how many were at the Apple store.

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I'm mostly a Windows user, and I don't know why I'd go to a MS store. For example, if I want an iPad or MBP I'd go to an Apple Store. I'm not sure what other stores carry them (does Best Buy?). But I know that the Apple store does.

In contrast, I can buy a PC anywhere. But I don't actually know what specific PCs are available at the Microsoft store. I do know they have all of the available phones at the MS store, but given that the only phones I'm interested in are those by my carrier, I'm more inclined to go to my carrier store (to see all carrier phones) than the MS store.

I think one of the main benefits to the Windows stores (besides the fact that they sell Windows Phones, and by all accounts don't actively try to talk their customers out of buying them) is the fact that they sell systems there which are part of Microsoft's Signature PC line.‡

For those unfamiliar, it's basically a system from a vendor without all the crap that they install on a fresh system. The fact that Microsoft actually has to have a service like this is certainly an interesting topic for discussion (I'm sure Microsoft would prefer that vendors not load up new pc's with garbage software that slows them down)

‡ http://signature.microsoft.com/Default.aspx

I agree it's great you can get a PC without the crap installed but I think MS have to tackle off the root problem and have it so that's how they all come.

Seriously, you'd get a noticable performance increase on the average low end laptop right off the bat if they could do that.

My understanding of how that works (which I admit is an outsider's understanding) is that PC vendors subsidize the price of new PC's by installing crapware on them.

The race to the bottom in PC pricing basically left them scrambling to find ways to keep their prices low without gutting their already-falling margins.

I don't think Microsoft is in a good position to require PC's to stop doing this (unless they were willing to eat the loss of vendor revenue by lowering their Windows license cost, which would effect their own margin).

I'm left optimistic by companies like Lenovo, who are now marketing crapware-less machines as a competitive advantage (as a byproduct of their Rapidboot initiative), and hope maybe other vendors will try and compete.

I don't remember the last time I bought a Windows PC where the first thing I did wasn't to immediately wipe it and reinstall the OS from an OEM version, although it'd be nice not to have to do that.

EDIT: realized I started two comments in a row with "Yeah,". That makes me almost as angry as if I'd littered the comment with "like, you know"'s...sigh

I agree with every word, I just think for moderate users using mid-level or above machines, crapware is a big enough problem that MS should be being worried about the impact it's having on the public perception of Windows.

At least with Windows today, MS has their hands tied. Anything they do to push vendors will throw antitrust flags.

Their best bet, if this is their core concern, is to move to an app store model, and block these apps from ever making it into the store, so the OEMs can't install them to begin with. But honestly, that's not likely.

At the end of the day the market talks. If people truly value clutter free machines they'll pay for it and OEMs will respond.

So while we're contrasting Apple and Microsoft, here's the first bit of copy on the Signature page:

"New PCs may come filled with lots of trialware and sample software that slows your computer down and makes it a pain to clean out all that stuff, just to get your new PC up and running, so we do that for you!"

Not only is that a hilarious contrast of the typical Mac/Windows out-of-the-box experience — right from the horse's mouth — but it's also quite poor writing. Whereas, Apple seems to have consistently excellent writing throughout their websites and products.

Yeah, I think the model around which Microsoft licenses Windows was designed to be "hands-off" (Anti-trust/non-competitive issues aside), and now they're reaping the results of that.

I'm not going to second-guess Microsoft that it wasn't the right way to do things (their sales over the past twenty years would seem to indicate that it's worked out just fine for them), but it does leave us in an odd predicament; where basically the incentives between Microsoft, the PC vendors, and the customers are not aligned.

I don't know what Microsoft should (or would be allowed to based on anti-trust) do about that situation.

I'm not the biggest MS fan, but they do have my sympathy in this regard. Imagine Ferrari shipping new cars to the dealers, and the first thing the dealers do is bolt on stupid large spoilers, ugly plastic body kits and paint the cars green. Every dealer does it; the only way you can buy a Ferrari is green with added plastic bits.

Ferrari then have to watch as other car buyers laugh - "ha! Ferrari's are so slow and ugly. You need to spend a good day or so just to get them to run correctly". Must be pretty frustrating

I went to an MS store in LA the other week. It was sad, but I couldn't stop laughing. Why is there an MS store when all of the products on display aren't even MS products? The tablet right in the front of the store didn't even work (touchscreen was broken), and it had a STYLUS! I actually laughed out loud.

Within close proximity was an Apple store, the MS store, and a Sony store as well. The Sony and MS stores were such blatant ripoffs of the Apple store in their design that it just added to the hilarity. The staff at the Microsoft store even wore the same shade of blue shirts as those at the Apple store.

Point of the story? Apple's lead in the industry is evident from more than their products and their profits.

It is interesting to note that the first Sony retail store wholly owned and operated by Sony opened in 1982 [1], way before the first Apple store in 2001 [2]. Although Sony had retail stores almost 20 years before Apple, their stores are not as popular, likely because of the lack of demand for their products.

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1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Canada#Sony_Style

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Store

There was amazing demand for Sony's products back in 1982.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkman

There's a Sony store in New York on Madison Avenue. It closes at 7pm. In New York.

A few blocks away there's an Apple store that does not close. Ever.

I'd venture that Sony stores are only still around in the US out of some kind of corporate machismo. I can't imagine they're making enough money to be worth it.

Christmas Day?

Open. http://www.apple.com/retail/fifthavenue/

Sony stores also charge retail for items you can get anywhere else below retail price. Apple typically prevents this by making margins razor thin on items, keeping the price consistent across retailers.

That's a good point. I didn't think about that. But people mostly go to the Mall of America to browse and don't go there for a specific store. That's my impression at least.

More importantly, how do you like your first Mac?

Some things I really like and some I really hate. Overall though I like it (Macbook Pro 13" base model - no upgrades).

I don't know why but I thought it would load applications faster than it does. Though, the overpowered Dell I bought last December is even slower. Why do I have this feeling my Mac should load applications faster? I don't know.

I don't like traversing the file system in the Mac. Perhaps its familiarity with Windows. File search on the Mac is infinitely faster though. I like that Macs are true multi-user operating systems. I can separate work and leisure better that way.

I didn't think I would care but I really like that the battery lasts a long time on the Mac. I pretty never used battery power on Windows laptops because "3 hours time remaining" ended up being 45 minutes.

The overall user experience is much better but I'm still getting used to it. I really hate that I can't create a folder at the time I save a document. Maybe there's a setting I don't know.

The most telling thing I can say is that I'm fairly certain that I'll never get a Windows machine again. With less ram, less video card power, less processing speed, my Macbook is much more responsive and the screen is much better.

I'm not sure what definition of multiuser you're using, but all the Windows NT-based OSes meet the normal definition of multiuser.

command-shift-n to create a new folder even in a save dialog.

command-shift-g to quickly go to a filesystem path (supports tab completion. It's unix filesystem, so ~/ == your home directory. ~/Doc[tab] will take you to your Documents folder, etc).

As for speed - RAM upgrade and an SSD make all the difference in the world (as they would for windows as well).

Oh, also, if you're new to the mac, you might need some of these:

* Quicksilver http://qsapp.com/ - quick app launcher and much more.

* Adium http://adium.im/ - the only IM client you'll need

* Colloquy http://colloquy.info/ - IRC client

* DTerm or iTerm - somewhat better than default Terminal.app

* Hex Fiend - awesome hex editor

* HandBrake - video conversion

* Sublime Text / Textmate - really excellent programmer editors

* XLD - lossless audio conversion

How did I not know about the command-shift-g shortcut? That is a awesome tip!

New iTerm user here as well, and I'm really liking it so far.

Don't forget VLC to play pretty much any video file you may get.

Don't forget:

Native shortcuts to take various screenshots (unrelated to anything, but so useful and cool): http://guides.macrumors.com/Taking_Screenshots_in_Mac_OS_X

* Sparrow http://sparrowmailapp.com/ - Gmail done right

* TextWrangler http://www.barebones.com/products/textwrangler/ - Best text editor, for any purpose and free

* Pixelmator http://www.pixelmator.com/ - Mac equivalent of Paint.NET except it's not free. Worth it though!

* Transmit http://www.panic.com/transmit/ - FTP, SFTP, you-name-it client

* LittleSnitch http://www.obdev.at/products/littlesnitch/index.html - Software firewall for when you want to block certain apps outgoing web requests

Enjoy your new Mac!

Paintbrush makes for a good free image editor (http://paintbrush.sourceforge.net/) — I use Pixelmator as an almost-Photoshop replacement, but the former is good if you want something really light.

Regarding the screenshots, I find that 90% of the time I'm taking screenshots it's to show somebody something, so I really like CloudApp. (getcloudapp.com) You do the usual shift-cmd-4, but instead of copying the screenshot to the clipboard it uploads it to their service and copies a link to the clipboard. On top of that, their site is really clean.

I like Skitch.com, similar idea, but it lets you choose what you want to take a picture off, and provides a basic image editor (handy for adding annotations, highlights, etc.) before upload.

Oh wow, that is brilliant!

Personally, I'd go for Alfred ( http://www.alfredapp.com/ ) over Quicksilver.

While Quicksilver is supposed to be more powerful, it just never really clicked for me and didn't feel very smooth. Alfred felt like it fit it better and let me do what I wanted to do - especially with the powerpack installed.

Mostly I just use it as an app launcher, file finder (start with ' and only searches files), and file browser (start with / and you're browsing the filesystem). Anything much beyond that was just overkill.

when I used a mac, I really preferred Terminal over iTerm (esp. for the large buffer size of term). I could do anything I wanted with Terminal (VT100 emulation etc. etc.)

I really hate that I can't create a folder at the time I save a document.

There is a "New Folder" button in the bottom left corner of the (expanded) save dialogue box. But it is true that you can't edit folder names or move files around from within the save dialogue.

While I realize that a save dialogue should be focused on saving, it annoys me to no end that I can't do some basic editing while I'm in there.

The Finder sucks, a lot, so file system traversal can be a pain. There are free alternatives though nothing comes to mind right now.

You can create a folder at save-time - there should be a disclosure/down-arrow button to the right of your file name textbox (this is a universal cue for "click here for advanced options"). This will roll out the advanced settings.

This gives you all the standard file system manipulation abilities you're looking for, including New Folder.

Thank you all for the information. It is most helpful.

Get yourself an SSD pronto.

They are worth the money, and as many software luminaries have said, they are the best upgrade money can buy right now.

You can take a Sandforce (or any TRIM enabled) ~64GB SSD and an optibay kit or similar and double to triple your load speed. Cost me ~$200 total.

Here's my account of an optibay-like installation on my 2010 MBP: http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=10814085&post...

According to Anandtech[1], TRIM only works on Apple purchased SSDs. However, it is recommendable to get one anyway with or without TRIM support.

[1]: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4205/the-macbook-pro-review-13...

OSX Lion is completely TRIM compliant for all capable drives now.

> I like that Macs are true multi-user operating systems. I can separate work and leisure better that way.

I've heard this a couple of times in the last days, and it has left me wondering, in what ways isn't Windows a "true" multi-user system?

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