Tennessee DoH halts all vaccine outreach to kids – not just for Covid-19
tennessean.com
tennessean.com
The other is that when you push too hard, you get pushback, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, etc. We are seeing this in other areas too, where pushing too hard on a liberal democratic (for lack of a better term) agenda leads to populist revolt, and effectively swings the pendulum way back past where most agree it reasonably should be. Until recently, it would only have been an extreme fringe group that was against long standing childhood vaccines. But it's not a surprise that when you start pushing people to do something, they start to become more wary and reject things that they previously would have accepted at face value. There is a pathway to authoritarianism where resistant is met by more and harsher rules, and one to a more enlightened society where people are treated like adults and mostly make the right choice.
What type of "outreach" programs can be described as being closer to "vinegar" than "honey"?
They shared a memo stating that they could vaccinate minors without parental consent.
We tried that. It was not very effective in the most recent experiment [1]. Nor those before [2] [3]. If we allow you adult choices, and you make choices that harm others (not getting vaccinated for whatever illegitimate reason is put forth), you end up having to be coaxed with policy (mandatory vaccinations by schools and employers) because you are not an adult capable of making adult decisions (you don't qualify for welfare in Australia if you don't get your kids vaccinated, for example [4]).
Harm yourself, by all means, that is your choice to make. Harming others (those who cannot get the vaccine for legitimate reasons) because of your ignorance infringes on their rights, and should under no circumstances be tolerated.
[1] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/why-the-delta-variant-is... (PBS: Why the delta variant is causing an explosion of cases among the unvaccinated)
[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6657116/ (Anti-Vaccine Decision-Making and Measles Resurgence in the United States)
[3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29773050/ (The Importance of Complying with Vaccination Protocols in Developed Countries: "Anti-Vax" Hysteria and the Spread of Severe Preventable Diseases)
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Jab,_No_Pay (The policies grew out of a grassroots campaign championed by News Limited, in 2013. It was boosted by parent activists representing children who had died of preventable disease, notably the families of Riley Hughes and Dana McCaffery, infants who died of pertussis, leading to a backlash of harassment and trolling from anti-vaccination activists. No Jab No Pay was introduced in 2015, and expanded in July 2018. By July 2016, 148,000 children who had not previously been fully immunised, were meeting the new requirements.)
(my note: get your vaccine already if you haven't)
So we can go back to banning adultery and divorce?
But I don't think there is any rock solid evidence divorce causes that much harm (over living in a house hold with two people that hate each other enough to get divorced).
But in terms of just bread and butter issues, divorce is much harder on the kid. It really messes up family finances unless the parents are really well off. There’s a lot of disruption of home life if there is joint custody, and the documented effects of fathers not being present if there isn’t joint custody. If there are boyfriends or girlfriends that come in and out that can be a source of a lot of problems as well.
"We tried letting people choose but those rascals didn't choose what we wanted! So instead now we will just force them into making the better choice"
You sort of wonder why at that point a choice was ever provided.
Drug companies have big pockets, but the US Government has even bigger pockets. I care more about being able to seek redress than who it's coming from.
edit: It doesn't matter if the vaccine manufacturers lowered their standards. It is the perception that they may have.
The thing people often forget about those US Government deep pockets is that they're the pockets of the US taxpayer being badly mis-managed by politicians with zero math skills.
Same thing when the vaccines get full FDA approval.
Narcissistic [1] tendencies when faced with challenges of fragile egos which shakes their self.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disor...
I feel like this comment and the one it's replying to perfectly articulates the real problem. Vaccination has gotten pulled into the web of politically charged topics. Even just a few years ago the anti vac sentiments didn't really have a home, but now we quickly default to litigating literally the culture war. I know you're replying to someone who brought the wider issues into it, but narcissism is definitely not at the root of a desire to have more people vaccinated.
Correct, and I didn't think that's what my comment implied. I argue it's the root cause of why people won't get vaccinated, and why they push back, on taxes, vaccines, cancel culture, seat belt laws, and gun buying restrictions as enumerated by GP. Fragile egos, a grandiose sense of self-importance, believing they are special, and a lack of empathy, high level. There's a reason I linked to the Signs and Symptoms of that wikipedia page.
Mask requirements in a pandemic? = attack on personal freedom/liberty
Taxes? = not a problem… trump took care of that.
Cancel culture? = stupid lib tears.
Seat belt laws? = attack on personal freedom/liberty… same as helmet laws for motorcyclists.
Gun buying restrictions? = attack on personal freedom/liberty
Brown neighbors? (actually not a big problem in the south since most neighborhoods are “voluntarily” segregated, but…) = the community will go to hell and property values will decrease.
Something about this post bothers me. It starts off making an attempt to understand the other side but then the tone shifts and non-sequiturs enter. And I think it’s the “I’m not sure I follow”, said like it’s some punchline that seals the deal.
Do we want to explore the situation or do we want upvotes for taking cheap shots at a straw man?
If you don't believe me, you can find videos of these trump idiots screeching in some town hall about "over regulation" and "tyranny" and "socialism!" but they then say "and keep your hands off my medicare and social security!".
Not really true...
So this isn’t the Republican following the siren song of Trump. They seem to be doing their own thing. And in so doing, making their own job harder because they’ll see more infections.
What is this: a grassroots competition to pander to their base which has lumped vaccines in with other pandemic measured they like?
I have not delved into their narratives so I’m out of the loop and confused on what is driving things. It isn’t Trump that I can tell.
Unfortunately, the GOP has increasingly embraced conspiratorial thinking, and that includes vaccine skepticism and hesitation.
Trump knew since May 2020 that Fauci was lying - he had the DOE LLNL investigate the lab leak theory, and LLNL reported that COVID-19 was possibly from a lab. So yeah, he doesn't believe experts who can't stop lying.
https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/exclusive-classified-stud...
> he's been kind of lukewarm on promoting the vaccines compared to Democrat leaders
Trump's Warpspeed (Spring 2020) funded the vaccines. I haven't heard him say any negative things about them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Warp_Speed
Republicans/Trumpists believe in personal choice, so I wouldn't expect him to be a cheerleader for getting a shot.
> the GOP has increasingly embraced conspiratorial thinking,
After Fauci lying for over a year, 2 failed impeachments, being deplatformed on social media, being told they have no standing to dispute elections, being told CRT doesn't exist - half of the country knows what a Marxist conspiracy feels like first-hand, and they're pissed.
Most of the major stories about Trump since 2019 on CNN, MSNBC and WaPo have been retracted in 2021 (after the election). I suggest you stop reading those sources and spend a couple months reading Fox and NTD - I can't think of anything they're retracted.
Do a Youtube search for "cpac trump full speech 2021" - the only full version is on Sky Australia's channel - for now. All the copies on US channels have been blocked or prevented.
What’s driving Carlson’s incentives?
Tucker Carlson is just riding the wave and tell his viewers what they want to hear. Many conservatives abandoned him after his refusal to to publish the Hunter Biden Laptop information.
The wording is "stop vaccine outreach to kids" not "stop vaccine outreach to parents"
This really doesn't seem that surprising to me.
Another theory is that vaccines are an increasingly easy topic for victim complex radicalization. People like to think they are smarter than their doctor, there was already a growing grift industry pushing vaccine skepticism, plus it's new. There's probably no easier way to radicalize someone already in your base than to say, "Hey you know how you already didn't trust that new guy in office (and I've been saying he didn't really win for months)? Now he is forcing you get a shot you don't need!"
It's pretty wild to think that there are people today actively encouraging people not to vaccinate against this thing but then again there have been people pushing against basically every vaccine for many years. All of them selling something: books, event tickets, snake oil type "health" products or just pulling in YouTube ad revenue.
Some people will do literally anything to get what they want in life, I guess it's really not different from a president starting a war for personal or shallow political reasons or a destructive industry leader burying a damning report but it's still super surprising to see it in real time as opposed to decades after the fact.
Over on Gab, TheDonald, and similar places I've seen people reconcile that with their anti-vaccination beliefs in a couple ways:
1. It's part of his long term 4D chess plan to eliminate the Libs and to MAGA. Libs will respond to pro vaccination messages, get the 5G microchip DNA rewriting population control injection being pushed under the guise of a COVID vaccine, and there will be no more Libs next generation. Patriots are smart enough to recognize this for a fake out to eliminate the Libs and avoid the vaccine, or
2. The Jews got to him.
In fact she did take one of the vaccines Trump promoted, and she did so publicly, because they were independently verified to work. Interestingly Trump got his shot in private and never revealed that fact.
Someone thought this memo, which was a technical legal document distributed to medical providers, was undermining parents choice. A lot of Tennessians agreed, called their state senators, etc, and now this happens.
The argument that it undermines parental authority is stupid, and I won't talk about that. What's more interesting is that this is a very clear cut case of the real-world harm social media can do.
The tide of outrage and ignorance can be powerful and is unchecked by its own absurdity. The emotional appeal to Trumpians who already feel victimized, bitter, and antagonistic to government, especially WRT healthcare, is unmistakable. It doesn't matter if it makes sense logically, or is inconsistent with Trumps own statements. The outrage is the point. The people in power who encourage ride these tidal waves of dangerous ignorance endanger us all in a very real way. Since all forms of self-restraint are now passe, apparently, it's time to consider options for restraining them.
(Something along those lines)
If you do believe that it's real with respect to the COVID-19 vaccines, what is your reasoning for advocating for "restraining" people who are concerned about this issue?
It is a degenerate form of the straw-man fallacy to bring up only the risks. Additionally, this kerfuffle is predicated on the totally false assertion that the state is taking parents out of the decision-making loop.
There is NO substance here. NOTHING.
There. You made me talk about the stupid thing. I hope you're happy.
There are people whose lives have been destroyed by vaccines. That isn't nothing. It seems they are just too much of a minority for you to care. Or you don't believe they exist. And that's why I asked you that question, because we can't have a conversation without understanding where each of us is coming from.
If you don't want to talk then don't talk. But don't attack and insult me. I'm not making you do anything.
I'm going to do what I need to survive. I will not be a sacrifice for your fake greater good.
There are several practical options for defending against respiratory infections. There are no practical options for defending against serious vaccine injury. We either cure ourselves or our lives are destroyed. We do not get any healthcare.
You are blinded by rage, self-pity, and a false sense that you are protecting others. Because you won the shit lottery, you think its more likely than it is, and it colors your perspective on vaccination. You have a better justification for your cognitive bias than most anti-vaxxers, but you're still just as wrong, dishonest, and deadly. Signing off.
I do not believe that I'm "protecting" people, and I certainly would not waste my time trying to protect able-bodied people who are fully capable of protecting themselves.
But I do work hard to help disabled people when they ask for help, particularly those with similar experiences to myself.
To be clear, I think vaccines do far more harm than good. I agree that serious, acute vaccine injury is very rare, but I would argue that a slow, debilitating degradation of health from vaccines is very very common. There is a rapidly growing body of research and real-world data indicating that vaccines significantly reduce our immune systems ability to defend against evolving viral threats. Short term, some vaccines appear to be a good idea, but long-term they may be a net-negative.
I feel kinda bad for the whole situation this year. It is just so disheartening both ways.
It was only 12 years before my birth that the US stopped forcing 18 year olds to join the military and fight overseas and we've started & joined in plenty of non-necessary wars since then.
Nothing is off limits when unlimited power & financial gain are at stake, I guess.
How can I ask people who work for me to live here?
Alternately, ensure they have sufficient pay and benefits to ignore the GOP restrictions and then hope they help vote them out.
I dunno what to tell you. After touring almost all of our great states, the only constant seems to be that you get what your neighbors vote for.
And then there are people who are politically diametric to you who are also great employees; these you probably don’t need to sell the idea of residency as much.
Between these two groups, there are enough such people to sustain job markets in every state.
EDIT: fellow Albertans feel free to email me on my profile (lots of us here!)
I've got a kid, though, so I'm currently trying to assess where we can afford to move that inspires confidence that we can really build something there. If we have to go, I don't wanna move again before she goes to college in a decade.
Whether this will be comfortable for you or not I can’t say. But I can tell you that it’s worth checking out.
As I consider if climate extremes are likely to keep getting worse, upstate New York or Vermont are seeming more and more viable to me.
New Hampshire's state motto is "live free or die." If you die in New Hampshire, it's probably because someone else was living free.
I can go buy magic mushrooms here, but in so-called Freedomland you can't even eat what you want. Whacky.
I moved to Texas for a short while and hoo boy, Austin is nice, but the peeps in Texas really love to tell the government to tread on them. You can't even get weed brownies here. Talk about big government.
Says who? The median American lives 18 miles away from their mom.
I also live in Tennessee but have been a remote worker for a decade. I deeply disagree with the politics of this place but you know, family's here.
I think they just think they are right, regardless of if their claims are backed by evidence or care / concern for secondary consequences like you are describing.
Flip the seats. If only it were so simple.
P.S. Check out how cringe the Tennessee "quality of life" page reads. Three clicks off of the homepage of TN.gov.
TLDR: Tennessee, "we keep it cheap"
In the end, the best thing we can do is to insulate ourselves and our loved ones from government intervention, focus on local politics, and take control of our own consumption i.e. we can't rely on the government to do what's best for our children.
We should use these high paying remote jobs to buy nice homes with lots of space and access to good schools and healthcare. The rest of it will sort of work itself out.
And if we're being honest, climate change will get us before the government here can /shrug
The future is FEMA
We feel that way too! So why don't you leave us alone? (If you hadn't noticed its not 1992 and nobody is trying to teach your kids abstinence-only education anymore.)
In fact there are still places teaching abstinence-only education and I'm pretty sure that trying to keep the existence of LGBTQ people from being mentioned is not a huge step forward.
Sorry, I don’t understand. Who is “we” and “you” in this scenario and what are “we” doing to bother “you”?
Not in Hawaii. We have a weird blend of Democrat in name and somewhat Conservative and Liberal function almost everywhere in the state.
I chuckle whenever any one claims Democrats are liberals. They clearly haven't been to our meetings.
The only thing Democrats agree on is opposing Republicans. And even that isn't a hard rule.
After that, policy wise, we fight about everything. No issue, or point of fact, too small to start a blood feud over.
> How can I ask people who work for me to live here?
Frankly, there is already enough demand and highly qualified people moving here.
P.S. I'm really into music and Nashville's music scene is very appealing, despite the state politics. So I'm definitely conflicted.
It seems they came very close to completely eradicating it from the world. But it seems crazy religious people prevented it.
Reading something like this is just very sad. When one of the kids catches Polio, they will soon realize the importance of vaccination.
I'm pretty pro-vax but I'm also very pro-freedom, and I am particularly pro the freedom for other people to put themselves in risky situations when I can extract knowledge from it.
I think Tennesseans overall will probably react to requests to go pro-vax by doubling down, so it's probably best to do that. Makes the experiment stronger. And creates a viable population in case we all drop dead ten years from now, or it turns out vaccines reduce sperm count or some random shit like that.
To put it simply: "Some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I am willing to make".
Life didn't go on for many children in the control groups unfortunately.
If we follow that premise, then advertising or giving alcohol to minors should be illegal too.. and it is!
Like it or not, it sounds like sensible legal reasoning.
There's an overwhelmingly large body of law dedicated to this.
The article mentions receiving postcards and other information at the minor's home, which is presumably their guardian's home. Is the state of Tennessee not allowed to address children by their name when informing a household that a minor is due for a vaccine?
> Postcards will still be sent to adults, but teens will be excluded from the mailing list so the postcards are not “potentially interpreted as solicitation to minors,” the report states.
I'm not sure about what the state of Tennessee is allowed to do but our pediatrician addresses reminders, calls, etc to the parents, not the children. Because again, kids can't consent but I can and do on their behalf.
The idea that you can even "solicit" a child to receive vaccines (as if they're an addictive pharmaceutical rather than a baseline preventative measure in the developed world) is farcical. Making the state's medical infrastructure contort itself to avoid referring to children in the second person reeks of politics over public health.
In this case, I think it's used as in "advertising" or "pitching" versus "encouraging illegal behavior" so I think they're using it neutrally vs nefarious.
Even "advertising" and "pitching" are misleading framings. Vaccines are public health policy, notifying people of their eligibility falls squarely within the state's basic obligation to notify its citizens.
Adults can usually tell the difference between can, should, and must but many kids implicitly trust adults, especially those who seem important - see: Milgram experiment for an adult example - so an official postcard may be taken as a demand instead of an opportunity.
Similarly, the police shouldn't talk to your kids without your consent either. It protects everyone.
[1]https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/health/documents/Mature_Mi...
https://www.tn.gov/content/dam/tn/health/documents/Mature_Mi...
Then it would seem to come down to this section:
"Tennessee county health departments follow Tennessee law and provide medical treatment and vaccinations to patients as young as 14 without parental consent if the individual provider determines that the patient meets the definition of a “mature minor” in accordance with Tennessee law."
and what normally constitutes a healthcare professional making that evaluation. If it normally takes that kid's family doctor/PA who has a long standing relationship, access to medical history, etc, then changing from that standard is challenging.
Stepping outside of precedents is hard and risky.
whether a 14 year old is actually able to make that decision is another discussion,
but the issue isn't about government forcing their will, but allowing minors to decide on their own.
Minors can legally give consent to lots of things; the precise scope varies among jurisdictions. Notably, in Tennessee (see citation in toepfactory’s sibling comment), for most medical procedures including vaccinations, minors 14 and up presumptively have the capacity to consent and parental consent is not required.
> Like it or not, it sounds like sensible legal reasoning.
You’ve created a superficially attractive chain of reasoning beginning with false premises.
Alcohol and Tobacco etc are generally regulated substances.
They cannot be obtained even by Adults in all circumstances, for example legislation may prohibit the sale of alcohol at certain venues or require a license to do so. The premise on advertising has less to do with consent I would say, but rather the health and social implications of such substances.
While the issue at hand with the vaccines maybe one of consent, it is a different situation.
This also seems to step farther than this, in its intent to restrict the use of school property to host vaccination drives. This serves no public good as far as I can imagine, it has nothing to do with consent either.
While the concept of consent should be obtained by parents in many situations, the idea that this is solicitation is a long bow and goes in general against the public good.
That said, vaccinations - like any prescription meds - are regulated far beyond alcohol and tobacco to the point where you need approval from specific people to buy them.
Making exceptions for parental consent is extremely risky now and into the future. While some make sense - like in an immediate emergency (ie. car accident, broken bones, etc) - this doesn't meet those criteria.