Why is standing more tiring than walking? [audio]
bbc.co.uk
bbc.co.uk
I have a standing desk and a really good ergonomic chair and every time I need to do extended work away from home (like in a vacation rental) it reminds me how important a good setup is.
What I'm now wondering about with all this talk about gravity and blood circulation - is anyone here using those 0 gravity setups where the screen is hanging above you and you are practically lying down ?
It seems like it would fix all the issues, have massive health benefits in the long run - if it actually works I could justify 5k$ but I don't have a chance to try it and I haven't heard about anyone using them. I suspect HN crowd is a good place to ask - anyone has info on how effective they actually are ? What are the downsides ? Is it just the cost ?
We spend 8+ hours 5+ days a week at the computer - I'm sure over a decade or two the investment would pay off if it prevents back pain, removes strain from your heart and keeps you more rested while working.
I think similar thing happens to a degree when sitting.
I just wonder if the benefits are there and if there are any drawbacks.
If anything, I think our largest (modern) collective societal health problem is that we do wayyyy to much trying to avoid straining the heart. For how much of human history were we not working mostly sedentary? It has a cost. The body is meant to be worked. It loses strength and stamina when it isn't. I don't think the answer is to do even less. Besides, do you know how many involuntary naps I'd take if I was laying down all day?
Your lymph system relies on the movements of your skeletal muscles to push anything not water soluble through your body. This includes fats, various local inflammation signaling molecules, etc.
When you feel sick don't stay in bed, go for walks, a large part of your immune system is passive and rely on muscle contraction to work optimally.
Do you have a source for this? I haven't heard this before and genuinely want to learn more about it. A cursory Google search didn't find anything related to this
https://www.mdanderson.org/publications/focused-on-health/ex....
And a common reaction to being sick is shivering, so maybe the body is already compensating for the lack of movement.
If you have a typical office job, you almost certainly don’t even have enough time in the day to overtrain.
But overtraining isn’t just getting over exerted and having to rest for a few days or even weeks. It’s a very gnarly condition that’s ridiculously hard to get to. Most of us would mentally tap out long before.
It’s a lot like the difference between needing a break and being burned out. Getting tired and needing a break is normal, being burnt out is a serious condition.
And if you had not done sport for a long time and suddenly get back to it, trying to "continue" where you left, that is when injuries happen.
I just put laptop on my bed, put a half-pumped sitting ball on the bed near the laptop and lie belly-down on it. About half the working time I just sit normally near my desk and the other half I change to this bed "setup". No back pains for over a year now (but I also started walking ~8 km a day so it probably helped too).
I've had issues with my back for most of my life. When I'm physically active (walking, resistance training, etc) and strengthen my core, I find that the problems subside to the point where I rarely hurt myself. It still happens but with much less frequency.
Posture and avoiding RSI-like outcomes helps too, but I genuinely think strengthening related muscle groups helps more. Not a doctor though, so take this opinion with an equivalently-sized grain of salt!
If that's the case, astronauts should come back healthier from space instead of less healthy.
...I haven't figured out yet how to develop a workstation where the computer is above me. I think the only way to really do that is actually to tilt one's body back, but actually that's not a good idea either. They have done studies recording from areas of the brain associated with alertness. Areas like locus coeruleus in the so-called reticular activating system. What they found is that depending on how reclined you are or upright you are, you will decrease with reclining and increase with sitting forward your levels of alertness. So body posture and whether or not your upright or reclining will impact your levels of alertness in the predictable ways. And where you position your eyes, whet her or not your eyes are upright, so to speak, looking up or directly forward or looking down, will dic tate whether or not you are feeling more alert or more sleepy, respectively. So try and arrange a work station or a position of your body in your chair or your standing desk, whatever it is, that allows you to work with a heightened state of alertness.
(text pulled from Youtube captions)
Removing all strain would be the worst thing you can do health-wise.
Adding support tends to weaken muscles. Use it or lose it.
This is the real problem. Any ergonomic solution is treating the symptoms rather than the cause.
Just the fact that people unirionically ask this question these days make me feel uneasy. Your body is literally screaming at your to move more, not less, listen to it. Work in 30 min blocks and go for walks in between, anything other than "how can I become a passive typing machine which doesn't move a muscle for 8 hours straight" please.
There isn't enough money in the world to buy a setup that will get rid of these issues, just be active, that's all there is, if you know how to sit properly, take breaks and exercise regularly you could use a 5$ ikea stool and never have back/shoulder issues. People want the magic pill to be healthy but focus on all the wrong things...
I care more about my health and long term well being than my company and the code I write. Walking 5 min every 30min won't kill your productivity, it might have the opposite effect actually.
I started exercising when I saw that most of my older peers in the field were fat/obese, had poor posture and no stamina whatsoever, these people are literally rotting day by day sitting in front of a computer
It seems so insane to me that some people internalised the idea that companies and productivity are the #1 priority in life, I can't even begin to wrap my head around that. As if selling your time wasn't enough, now you have to sell your body. Unless you live in some weird hellhole of a country without mandatory rest breaks laws I don't see why you would put yourself through sitting more than a few hours at once
I have been using standing desk for a year, trying to switch sitting and standing frequently, in my case at least every hour. Why ? Firstly, my physiotherapist said her stance on the long term standing is negative since it can lead to imbalances - humans tend to put more weight on one feet, for instance. Secondly, there was a long article in local weekly magazine about sitting and standing, basically saying that the human body will adapt to whatever condition there is. For sitting, this means the muscles etc. will eventually "freeze"; the only way how to fight that is constantly subject the body to change in posture.
Long line at the grocery store? No thank you - I'll come back later.
I solved it by constantly massaging my calves for about a month and a half. There are tools you can purchase on Amazon for it like the Stick, but gua sha, a spatula from your kitchen works just as well.
I also switch to shoes that don't have soles since soles weaken your muscles by causing them to atrophy.
Haven't had problems since.
Hope you can resolve the issues.
Initially it hurt more, then it just went away.
A second thin on the calves is using a "strassburg sock" during night. Keeps everything stretched, if one's one of those with initial pain in the morning because it has "settled" in a non flexed state.
Not sure if I agree on soles, though. Some people have feet that needs correction. Or at least that having used soles one's whole life, suddenly switching it up can lead to more harm than good. For me, finally getting a custom molded sole has solved a lot of issues I've been dealing with my whole life (wide foot, extreme arch).
(most of my pf knowledge is based on me and friends getting it from running, other causes might have other characteristics)
Anecdote is not data but I'm 100% convinced that the soles made it worse for me, apart from the >10k spent on soles and shoes. I can go running again without pain!
For a few weeks, maybe 5-10 minutes a day, totally fixed it. It was pretty awful until then but it was amazing how quickly it cleared it up. I tried different styles of the roller but that style (rubber with small weird nub things) seems to work the best/most comfortable to use.
Just wanted to say thanks. I never consciously linked the 2. Will have to make use of it to know if my exercise routine is helping.
Sitting is generally OK, but I always slouch if that's the proper term, my butt is way in front of where it should be, so I have more Formula 1 position. And I can be like that for hours without feeling any pain or major discomfort. Actually sitting straight is not comfortable after some time and I always slide down. Office worker for 17 years, prior to that school 17 years of school of +-same stuff.
Maybe some slight type of scoliosis that was never diagnosed, really don't know. Working out with free weights and climbing keeps me in check and can't complain much, not even during covid times when moving generally less. But if anybody has any clue/suggestion for improvement I would be eternally thankful.
My hamstrings are very tight from sitting all day, to the point that I cannot even bend 90 degrees at the waist with my back straight without discomfort in my hamstrings. I've assumed that tight hamstrings are the root cause to my back pain while standing, but I haven't fixed it yet.
The best results I've had in the past when I was more physically active were from doing "good-morning" exercises. I think it's because you build strength in the stretched position, which is important according to various books I've read like "relax into stretch" and articles on PNF stretching. When I was doing these exercises regularly I was able to put my forhead to my knees without doing any regular stretches.
https://youtu.be/GX7Vz8OWwUI?t=63
Please at least watch the a minute from the timestamp to see if this can help.
I had the same back soreness after starting using a standing desk. I was also running every day and not doing other exercise (thanks lockdown). It didn’t seem to improve over time.
When it was allowed, I switched to going to the gym and only doing weights (squats, deadlifts, pull ups). After a couple of months the soreness just vanished, even after standing all day.
I can walk for hours and miles, but standing for even short durations is unbearable for me, due to pain & discomfort in my back and shoulders.
I’ve got “diagnosed” with an underdeveloped trapezius (and several other muscles in the upper back region) and my head is ‘heavier’ than those can carry, at least according to my GP, who used to be a physiotherapist. I’ve tried working out, with focus on these areas, posture corrections and sheer will power, but eventually I’ll end up slouching and my posture goes back to the hunchback of Notre Dame, because it feels more natural and ironically comfortable.
Nearing my 30s I’ve grown more desperate and pushed and pushed specialists and eventually they found out I have ‘minor’ scoliosis. Surgery will need to be paid privately, as it’s mostly discomfort and comparably not a lot of pain, and is therefore not an option at the moment. I can live with it, but the fear grows that it will get worse with age.
Compare moving your arm like a pendulum vs keeping it stretched horizontally.
You will probably find that you lean slightly from side to side or stagger very slightly, with your core having to be partly engaged all the time. Your feet are in the same spot, but your center of gravity shifts and the core is the only thing to counter that.
Meanwhile, when you walk, the momentum of your upper body takes care of a lot of this, you just automatically lean forward and your feet get under you, offloading a lot of that adjusting from your core. Your center of gravity moves predictably and your feet can "plan" to get right below it in the next step you take.
Turns out I had what Dr YouTube said was an anterior pelvic twist (standing slouchy, belly out). Making myself stand upright was actually enough to give me an abs workout. I felt from standing the kind of “burn” you get after a load of crunches.
Even now, a year later, I still have to work up to doing more than ~3 hours standing if I don’t stand consistently.
So standing desks have a great for me. My one concern is that when tired or focused I subconsciously lean at weird angles and put pressure in the wrong places, but hopefully I move frequently enough.
But (and I really don't know about this), isn't standing the worst?
When you're sitting you can put your feet up to help circulation. And walking is also good for you. So I assume that's what the article "says"?
Can anyone provide a tl;dl?
- Standing applies pressure on the same points on the feet. Walking shifts pressure from place to place.
- "Moving in general is good for health" (with the implication that sitting and standing still are not moving)
Now I typically get over 12 hours of standing per day, and it definitely helps with my energy level. It seems to reduce the energy barrier of going to do something (with your feet).
As mentioned by other comments in this thread, there are issues with standing completely still all day. I find myself shifting weight between my legs throughout the day, and finding occassional excuses to walk in circles or visit the whiteboard.
After a while you don't even process it as some sort of inconvenience. Sitting down actually drives me nuts now. It feels "wrong" for some reason. I have no trouble getting to sleep at night though.
Do you have a partner or kids? What impact has this choice made on them?
I find that standing when working helps me concentrate better, though I make more typing mistakes because the position of my hands is different from what I had been used to. I didn’t have serious back problems before, but my back does feel better now that I am sitting less. I don’t stand up all day; I sit down occasionally to rest my legs.
I think making sure all the physical/mental tools are available comfortably, e.g. multiple monitors, spend a lot of time on ergo considerations (you should be tiling your head slightly down when viewing content), gel rests for wrists for typing/mouse, padded gel floor mat to reduce foot stress and force more micro-muscle adjustments in your legs.
It takes getting used to, but now I can do the same sitting or standing.
1. Perfecting Your Posture, 2. Exercising for Better Posture 3. Standing at Work
Whatever it was, it wasn't understood by medical science, but the best thing we were able to pin it down to was "muscle spasms". Over time, I found that seeing a myofascial specialist, yoga, and physical therapy (read: Apple Fitness Plus) helped.
If you'd like to chat more about this topic or just pick my brain, my email is my username AT my username DOT org.
Deskbound: Standing Up to a Sitting World
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31683999
Skipping over some of the rha-rha zeal there's some helpful ideas in making standing less static and more sustainable.
This means that it is not very good at bearing a load without moving; it has to work hard to keep those flexible muscles, tendons and ligaments still.
Maybe that's why planks world records are set by people in their 60s and 70s. Because most of their flexibility has been lost due to aging.
Is this true? Very interesting if it's because they're somehow advantaged for it.
Gotta love 90s radio. But... it's not the 90s anymore.
I'd recommend starting out with placing your weight more towards the front of your foot. I imagine my foot having three zones: heel, mid/arch and front. I try to stand as much as possible on mid/arch and front but move around every few minutes to train more muscles and promote an overall more active/front leaning posture.
Once you start doing this you will probably realize you have a strong tendency to stand on your heels which strains a lot of muscles and tendons imo it also promotes a less ideal posture.
I'm not really qualified to give such advice though so your mileage may vary. This is just stuff I've noticed and has worked for me.