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Comment by mindslight | Hacker News Reader

Oof, that's not even a $700 repair. What's pictured looks more like a $200 repair. The rest is straight profit for Electrified Garage, for having Tesla knowledge at this point in time.

Personally, I would have used a plastic fitting so that if it were to get hit again, the fitting would take the damage instead of the part that has been threaded into.

The driving force being this story seems to be that the owner didn't have road hazard coverage. You've got to wonder how much Tesla is just raking in by defrauding insurance companies who don't yet know any better than to sign off on replacing the whole pack for a simple repair.

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This repair is R&D that is definitely worth the price.

There's no way this is a $200 repair, that Tesla took up a bunch of shop time and their specialized technician for the better part of a day, carefully researching and installing this repair fitting. If you are charging $25/hr labor you are out of business.

If the repair fails, they will likely take it back and improve the fix.

Your plastic mystery fitting would likely not be compatible and cause a leak of whatever coolant is running around in there.

Lastly, road hazard insurance didn't cover any repair. Tesla doesn't do this kind of repair as well, leaving the only recourse replacing the entire part.

"R&D" ?? It's replacing a molded hose barb with a threaded fitting. Also FTA: "the shop had another significantly cheaper solution it had used once before".

What's pictured in the article looks like 2 hours of labor, which would be a few hundred dollars at the rate for generic labor. I'm specifically highlighting the additional premium that Tesla expertise is commanding right now.

> mystery fitting

You do realize that all the usual pipe fitting shapes come in materials besides brass, right?

> Lastly, road hazard insurance didn't cover any repair.

Yes, this is reflected in my comment.

> Tesla doesn't do this kind of repair as well, leaving the only recourse replacing the entire part.

I'm sure Tesla takes the "broken" core pack, disassembles it, replaces that one plastic molding, and ships it off to the next repair for another $16k. For Tesla to charge an insurance company $16k with the justification of replacing the whole pack (while not even mentioning core charges!) is essentially insurance fraud.

They're skating by because they're new, but I can imagine in a few years either insurance companies will only pay for repairs from third parties who charge reasonable prices, or they will raise premiums significantly if you want to be entitled to OEM service/parts. I'd bet this dynamic is one of the main reasons Tesla is fighting Right to Repair.

You have to know that repair is safe and meets all the coolant system design constraints. It certainly isn’t something most shops are going to just have a standard procedure for. That was what caused the problem in the first place.

Sure you technically have to "verify that repair is safe and meets all the coolant system design constraints". Except you don't, because common sense says most of those constraints are not critical. Like sure, the narrower ID of that 1/4" NPT nipple might cause a little more backpressure to the coolant pump. But there is no way the system would have been designed to be that marginal in the first place.

The main thing to worry about is chemical compatibility of the antifreeze to the new materials, but that's at worst a half hour to find the antifreeze datasheet. Or the mechanic already knows, from seeing the parts of other systems that antifreeze is used in.

Regarding your confounding over R&D -- Yes it is. I am on board with you that the specialized Tesla mechanics are gonna charge more per hour, $200-$350 sounds reasonable for a car you can buy and sell for %30 more than you paid for it -- But its R&D for this reason: The worthiness of Tesla repairs are totally unknown. These technicians are taking a chance (and I'll bet they offer a warranty, standard practice among reputable practitioners in the industry) that they can tap the brass fitting into the Tesla plastic which has an unknown composition to me and you and it will be a more or less permanent fix.

Just because it looks like 2 hours of labor doesn't mean there aren't other risks involved as well as servicing the battery cooling system properly. Such risks include: fire, poisoning, accidental damage, environmental disposal and cleanup, future warranty service, or even an unfortunate death caused by the repair failure causing the batteries to ignite.

If you get the Monroe to spend 2 hours on it, it won't work and I can guarantee that.

>You do realize that all the usual pipe fitting shapes come in materials besides brass, right?

Yes I do. The materials are designed to be compatible with the components in the system. This is why Japanese aluminum motors typically use EPDM rubber parts and HOAT coolant without silicates, to prevent oxidization of the channels and water pump. Throw some ethylene glycol or silicate/borates and natural rubber in there and suffer the consequences.

What will PVC do with the (speculating) polycarbonate body of the battery packs or the coolant(Another commenter claims it is the pretty expensive Zerex G48[0] wich will dissolve some plastics)? Brass is a good guess for compatibility, but why they chose that will cost you $700 to find out -- a bargain! I'm betting it's because available plastic fittings aren't going to have the strength to last in the reduced tolerances caused by the repaired threads in the plastic housing. Quite a bit of experience is really required to know if and how to do this right.

>> Lastly, road hazard insurance didn't cover any repair.

>Yes, this is reflected in my comment.

>[...]

>...For Tesla to charge an insurance company $16k with the justification of replacing the whole pack...

Edit: I see your point here, Tesla dumbery = costly repairs. Definitely agree.

Hopefully Right To Repair will free this proprietary information up to Alldata so anybody can pay a subscription fee and learn of the specifications and repair data. Also, it will standardize labor book time...

[0] - https://www.valvoline.com/our-products/heavy-duty/zerex-g-48

Maybe I didn't state my original point well, but I'm only trying to point out that this type of repair done as well-known problem on a popular car would be a few hundred dollars. I don't think you could find a Tesla-focused shop that would do the repair for much less, and the customer here is definitely happy with the price.

I'm not putting down Electric Garage for charging "too much", but rather pointing out how lucrative it is to go into the third party repair business for Teslas. Anyone into Right to Repair should appreciate encouraging a more vibrant repair market.

My point about the material of the fitting is that you can run into trouble when you use a stronger/heavier material to tie into an existing lighter piece. For example, the next hit to that area will end up breaking the newly-threaded part as the brass acts as a lever and stress point, necessitating a much deeper repair.

In general, plastic would be a better starting point. Given that there are no less than 3 types of plastic visible in the area of a repair, surely there is some commonly-available plastic that will work. A sibling comment says it's using Zerex G48 antifreeze. It looks like that is compatible with nylon. Five minutes of web research isn't a way to be sure though, and obviously you'd want to be very sure before actually using it. But a mechanic can figure that out once and then they'll know. Just like the mechanic in the video says they've used brass before and know it's compatible.

> The insurance didn't cover road debris, 16K is what Tesla charges for the parts and R&R of the battery pack to customers

Yes, I understand Tesla's policies here. The point is the policies themselves are patently ridiculous. If my car window were to get smashed and the dealer told me the only way they could fix that window was to sell me a new car, any insurance company would rightly balk - because insurance companies understand that windows can be replaced independently.

Here Tesla is disingenuously claiming that the battery pack is some indivisible unit, and insurance companies just don't know any better yet. If you watch the video, you can hear the customer explain that Tesla pushed back hard on him wanting to keep his old battery pack. That's because they don't throw bad packs into the trash, but rather they recover most of their value by rebuilding them. Yet the customer/insurer is paying as if there is no residual value in the broken pack ("core charge"). Fraud is a strong word, but I feel it appropriately describes what Tesla is doing to insurance companies with these policies.

Oh for sure, once these things have been around and there exists an aftermarket, there's going to be all kind of fixes and repair kits available once people figure out how these fixes work. I feel a lot more in accord with your comments.

I don't think its disingenuous or crazy unreasonable for Tesla to not support a repair like this, I kind of think they can't wrap their heads around it. Their service network is still very underdeveloped and they don't have the benefit of real-world repair data like everybody else. Their solution to everything seems to be "Replace the unit." It does indeed seem crazy that Tesla does service this way and has such a weak cooling port on such a critical component though.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that broken Tesla windows come only as the whole door, too.

The thing about the plastic repair is for real though, brass is the way to go. Nothing will make it less susceptible to this kind of damage aside from protecting and anchoring the cooling line in a much less dumb way.

Electrified Garage were the ones who knew where to hit it with a hammer -- seems like a fair deal to me!

https://www.buzzmaven.com/old-engineer-hammer-2/

I'm not condemning it, just pointing out the current market value of Tesla repair knowledge!

Google says a Model 3 takes about 5 gallons of G48 anti freeze. That's $100 in just fluids. High end mechanics can charge about $150/hr. Let's say:

1 hour to dismantle and diagnose

1 hour to cut/drill/tap

1 hour to fill and bleed the system

1 hour for whatever diagnostics are needed to verify that the ECU is happy and the car drives well.

Sounds like $700 to me.

Good point on the antifreeze. I think you're overestimating the time though. And the premium between $80/hr generic shop rate and $150/hr "high end mechanic" is exactly what I was trying to highlight.

Ultimately consumers will need to decide whether they want to put with this or go with a easier car to repair like a Toyota.

Honestly I’m surprised that it would be exposed like that, rather than tucked behind a panel.

The rubber fuel lines on my 1973 240z are behind a removable panel at the rear wheel. 3 screws and it’s off for access.

If you watch the video, the connector is behind a plastic panel (albeit not very rigid).

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