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Comment by Scoundreller | Hacker News Reader

Around here, they’re used as a run-around restrictions on alcohol advertisements.

I’m sure growth is great, but I see it stagnating at a small percentage of the market.

Beer-less alcohol in a can is really skyrocketing. Not sure how 5% food-grade ethanol in carbonated water sells for 50% more than beer, but it is what it is.

All the buzz and less the sugar-rush calories.

Maybe one day we’ll grow up and replace alcohol with better recreational drugs that are more fun, easier to manufacture, better targeted and result in fewer health and social problems.

There’s a bazillion candidates out there.

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Alcohol-free beer is definitely used as a tool for advertising purposes in Germany, though it also seems fairly popular. It takes up a significant fraction of the beer shelf space in any supermarket.

I don't think we're likely to replace alcohol any time soon - even with other relatively popular things like cannabis. The effects are more predictable and enjoyable by more people.

There's even some evidence, perhaps of questionable quality, but it makes a good story at least, that we may have evolved to prefer alcohol despite its toxicity because it was a reliable source of safe drinking water.

And even newer theories saying it may be related to the smell of ripe fruits leading to some primates getting a better source of energy.

In any case human affinity for alcohol likely goes back very far.

Additionally it is a source of energy. Alcohol is digestible. There is a caloric benefit.

> I don't think we're likely to replace alcohol any time soon - even with other relatively popular things like cannabis. The effects are more predictable and enjoyable by more people.

Ease of manufacturing is also a major factor. All you need is sugar, water, yeast (which can come from a multitude of sources), and patience.

Um, I don't see how that's easier than cannabis.

With cannabis, all you need is... cannabis. No patience required.

Sugar, historically, has not been available or even cheap.

> Sugar, historically, has not been available or even cheap.

Sugars are commonplace. If you can make bread, you can make beer.

Making bread required agricultural advances, and it's a complex, labor-intensive, multi-step process (as is anything that has to do with grains).

Making alcohol by fermenting fruits is comparatively much easier, but then again, cultivating and harvesting fruits is a pretty laborious process.

Then actually brewing beer is not that simple.

Even today, with availability of source materials and technology, homebrewing is a rather involved hobby. Same with producing wine that's drinkable.

On the other side, we have literally a weed that needs very little to grow, and requires nearly zero processing.

I really see no comparison here.

The theory that we started making alcohol for food safety/nutrition reasons makes the most sense to me.

> There’s a bazillion candidates out there.

Other than cannabis, and maybe psychedelic mushrooms, what candidates are there exactly?

Most other research chemicals, really. Check "TIHKAL: The Continuation" for some discussion :P

kratom makes a good replacement for alcohol

Personally, I don't see the recreational value. For me it was a very, very weak opiate high that wore off in an hour and whose tolerance builds up extremely fast. It should be more widely available though since people have said it helps them taper off actual opiates.

There's a lot of variability of response, but plenty of people report on /r/kratom that it's helped wean them from alcohol. It certainly helped me.

It's not without concerns (tolerance/addiction) but for those who respond well it is incredibly valuable.

My observation of this substance was that it was similar to a low grade opiate and seemed to be quite habit forming among several people I knew that tried it.

I am all for allowing natural drug use, however I know several people who developed actual addictions to Kratom. I mean they all got over it when they made it illegal (I think) but still would be careful about recommending it without disclaimer.

Yeah it has it's issues as well and I normally include that in the proposition. It's been a struggle for me as well, but it's worth it for the upside.

Phenibute is popular in fitness communities as an alternative to alcohol when going out.

Chronic use of Phenibut is associated with psychosis and physical dependence. Alcohol is no angel, but Phenibut is probably not the answer.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6758981/

GHB, for one, is said to be all the best parts of alcohol with less of the downsides. It's still addictive and super illegal though, has the stigma of being a "date-rape drug", is maybe more neurotoxic than ethanol (excitotoxicity may be more in play), but definitely less toxic for the rest of the organ systems, and non-carcinogenic.

Kava, a beverage made from the roots of the piper methysticum plant, is broadly similar to alcohol, but milder, more sedate, non-addictive, non-toxic, and legal almost everywhere in the world. It's expensive though (only grows in the tropics), tastes like dirt-water, and takes a bit of work to prepare.

English neuropharmacologist David Nutt has been reportedly working on a synthetic less-toxic alternative to alcohol for years, but it's unsure if anything will ever come of it.

> Beer-less alcohol in a can is really skyrocketing. Not sure how 5% food-grade ethanol in carbonated water sells for 50% more than beer, but it is what it is.

Fills the same niche as beer in the night without being beer.

In essence, yeah - it really targets a few previously underserved markets. There are a few non-obvious appeals over beer for some:

- For one, the most popular brands are a very easy amount of calories to add up per can. White Claw, for instance, has exactly 100 calories per can, so it's very easy to calculate how many calories are consumed per night by counting cans. So it appeals to calorie counters.

- Along the same lines, the carbs in the can are straightforward and easy to count. People doing keto are usually trying to stay under 30g of carbs per day. White Claw again has an easy-to-remember and easy-to-count 2g of carbs per can. So it appeals to carb-watchers.

- It's gluten free, unlike beer. Obvious appeal for people who have some sort of gluten intolerance

Wrap all of the above together and include the fact you mentioned that it functionally works like beer (you buy it in single serve containers in packs, it's relatively low ABV so it won't get you trashed immediately and you can drink it casually and it's served ice cold) but isn't beer from both a taste and feel perspective and it's pretty clear to see why it's really taken off as quickly as it has.

My understanding is that hard seltzers are mostly made in a fashion similar to beer. They use cane sugar rather than barley in the fermentation process.

Sure but they filter out (almost?) everything besides the water & alcohol. I'm quite confident legal, tax, & cost factors are the reason why they don't use a food-grade distilled ethanol as the alcohol base.

This is correct. What people want is a canned vodka soda, but vodka is taxed at a much higher rate than malt beverages (and depending on the state, harder to sell/purchase). The innovation of using sugar as a fermented base to get closer to that flavorless alcohol is what drove the hard seltzer craze: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/09/how-tax-policy-gave-...

I remember reading about the fermentation thing before, it just seemed so bizarre. Just strikes me as so odd, that the real innovation, is a tax workaround. And that innovation basically created an entire market category.

At that point if I were the government, I would look at the current policies and determine if they still made sense. Meanwhile, the actual US customs didn't like that dodge, and apparently wanted imports of it re-classified for tariff purposes. That apparently happened last month.

I actually think if it were just the taxes, the innovation probably wouldn't have happened. The bigger problem is that you can't really sell a national canned hard liquor drink, even if the liquor in it has been diluted by mixers down to beer or wine levels of alcohol. Too many states don't allow liquor to be sold anywhere but licensed liquor stores, and shelf space there is too precious for low-priced high-volume beer substitutes. You can sell malt-based hard seltzer in gas stations nearly everywhere.

That's a very good point. I guess then I would lump those together as 'policy' but you are right, that is a very distinct problem vs taxes. And probably not a surprise, I'm really not a fan of most US alcohol policy.

It's going to be hard to top alcohol for "ease of manufacture", prisoners routinely manufacture their own.

Their constraints are different than most.

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