When you work more for more money, the taxes explode.
When you work more for more money, the taxes explode.
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In Germany, everything that a company gives an employee is salary. Company car? You have to pay 1% of the listing price of the car _per month_ in taxes (that's 1000$ per month in taxes for the employee if their company gives them a 100k$ car..). Stock? The day you receive the stock, price is measured, and 45% you pay in taxes. Stock options? The day you receive the option, the price of the stock were you to exercise it right away is measured, and that's taxed with 45% (which kind of forces you to exercise at least some of the options to pay the taxes), etc.
Otherwise companies could pay you by paying your whole life (car, house, etc.) to avoid taxes.
BTW, this is also why startup culture in Germany sucks. Startups can't really pay people in stock options, cause they are super highly taxed, and they are hard to value. Worst case you end up paying a lot of taxes for something that ends up being valued == 0 the moment you can't sell it (startup dies).
You can also pay 0% for the company car, but then you need to use it only for work, keep it parked at your employers, can’t use it for anything private, etc.
What most people understand by getting a company car is “a car that you can use for whatever whenever and however you want” (it’s your car). If you do that, and only use it privately, then 1% is what you pay.
Also you don't have to pay the 45%. That is the highest tax bracket in the progessive system.
So you have to put the 1% (1000€ for a really expensive car you probably only get as a CEO) and assume that as payout. And then you tax that. For a good car you normally are in the range of 300-500€ a month for normal employees and then you can even pay the gas which is a bigger benefit for most people.
Also you don't have to pay taxes on unrealised gains, that is just bullshit. You have to pay taxes only when you realise those gains, e.g. when you pull the option and sell or keep the shares. As long as it is just options you don't have to pay anything.
But with your level of tax knowledge I would also be scared of the bad bad Finanzamt. OwO
Stock options (or crypto) counted as regular income _are_ taxed at your marginal tax rate, which, for anyone making above 55k€ or so is either 42% or 45%. Can't be bothered to look it up.
> You have to pay 1% of the listing price of the car _per month_ in taxes (that's 1000$ per month in taxes for the employee if their company gives them a 100k$ car..).
You said:
> That is just wrong. You have to tax the 1% of the list price, [...] so you have to put the 1% (1000€ for a really expensive car
Either we both are wrong, or we both are right, unless you are somehow using language in a super subtle way. EDIT: you are right and I'm wrong, sorry, you get 1% of the list price as if it were income, so you need to tax that, i.e., what you said is correct, 1% of the list price is taxed per month. With a 45% tax rate, for a 100k$ car, you need to tax 1k$ per month, and at 45% means you pay 450$ per month in taxes.
> Also you don't have to pay taxes on unrealised gains, that is just bullshit.
I work in Germany. I get stock every month. I don't sell the stock (gains are unrealized). I have to pay taxes for all the stock I get. I do pay the taxes for all my stock (my employer declares it as part of my income).
Also, I've interviewed and gotten offer for some SV startups and they would have allowed me to work from Germany. Talked with 3 financial and tax advisors here, and they all said the same: stock options are part of the income, and just like the stock, they get taxed with your income tax.
> Also you don't have to pay the 45%.
Right, you only pay that if you make more than 50k brutto per year or so. For example, in an entry level job right after the university, e.g., as a PhD student working on a publicly funded project, you have to pay 45% taxes.
> But with your level of tax knowledge I would also be scared of the bad bad Finanzamt. OwO
lol after reading my reply, read also the other replies to your comment
Tax evasion is a crime that you really don't want to commit in Germany. Arguing that "you didn't know" isn't really a defense.
You said: "pay 1% of list price in taxes". They said: "pay taxes on 1% of list price".
There's a difference. For example, given a 50k€ car and 35% marginal income tax rate, your version would result in 500€ additional income tax per month, while their version would result in 500€ * 35% = 175€ additional income tax.
A bigger reason from the startup perspective as to why you don't give options to employees is because you become a voting member of the company and have to sign off on major changes (via a notary). Many startups skirt this issue by giving you "virtual options" which turn into money directly after some exit event, as if you got a bonus, and some startups let you pseudo-exercise by allowing you to put the exercised options into a pool controlled by a member of the board or company.
It's a lot more restricted compared to USA (it would be nice to be able to exercise really early when the company is tiny so your tax bill is low, or do something like an 83B election) but it's not that onerous and there are ways to get around some of the worst of it.
FWIW is true for all capital gains after taxes (doesn't matter how you got the stock). If you get stock as income, you pay first 45% tax on the stock, and then when you sell 25% tax on gains.
Or is 35 the standard for government workers and unionized companies like in construction?
> Or is 35 the standard for government workers
Government workers typically have 40h/week, but govenrment supports 50% and 75% time (so 20h/week or 30h/week) with the corresponding reduction in salary.
> tech jobs
That's usually 40h/week unless you do a tech job at a "metal works" company like BMW, VW, Porsche, etc. in which case its 35h/week. Outside of these companies, you can negotiate your work time pretty much freely up to the legal limits for salaried employees.
Legal limit on a particular day is 10h/day, and you need 1 day off per week, so your max weekly workload can be 60h/week. However, the legal limit _on average_ is like 45-50h/week, so if you work 60h one week, you have to work 20 the next one to avoid violating the average limit.
These legal limits are actually very harshly enforced. It isn't uncommon for, e.g., chinese companies to get fined in germany for violating this, and after the first fine, they are required to report the exact work times of each employee. The fines grow significantly, so usually chinese companies end up closing the office and kicking everyone out after 40h/week to avoid getting close to a second fine.
The "You will do X", followed by our "well actually..." reply, was quite common in the early years.
That wasn't the original claim. If you're paying a high marginal tax rate, you may be making a nonnegative amount of money, but that doesn't mean it's a sufficient incentive to get you to do work when you'd sooner play video games.
But on top of that, it isn't even true. It's not unheard of for marginal rates in practice to exceed 100% as a result of overlapping benefits phase outs. You pay a 25% tax rate, an education benefit phases out at a rate of 25%, a housing benefit phases out at a rate of 30%, a childcare benefit phases out at a rate of 25%, you earn an extra $1 and the government takes $1.05.
This also doesn't account for the cost of earning the money. Your boss offers you an extra half shift, but then you pay the commuting cost (say $10) for 4 hours instead of 8. If your hourly rate is $10, maybe you still take it and make $30. If it's $10/hour but there is a 50% marginal rate, you spend two hours commuting and four hours working to come home with $10/day, and screw that. If the marginal rate was 80%, you're nominally "making" $8/day but in practice you're losing $2/day (and the six hours of time).
That’s the problem with Tesla in Germany: annual salary is 10-20% higher, hourly salary is 30% lower.
My friends quitting lost in yearly salary, but won huge in hourly rate.