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Comment by avalys | Hacker News Reader

If you don’t like it, you don’t have to use Instagram and you don’t have to use Facebook. These are completely non-essential services in every way.

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You're getting downvoted rather than replied to which is a bummer, because I understand your POV but have recently changed my stance on this.

I used to be the standard kind of user of FB and Instagram who had friends and occasionally posted, etc. Then I realized it makes me feel like crap being on there and hated their business practices so stopped using it.

Lately though, I've had a few experiences that made me rethink how optional it really is. I recently sold a car and FB Marketplace has /so many more people/ along with a higher degree of trust than Craigslist. I got a bunch of offers from FB and none from Craigslist despite the same listing.

But even more significant is how businesses interact with the platforms. Because a bunch of people use FB/Insta, a lot of local businesses post new things or updates or specials there. Lately, new businesses are not even bothering with a website and just setting up an Insta. If I'm looking up what a store's hours were this past holiday weekend in the USA, then I know it's most likely going to be best to look it up on their Insta page. And just go ahead and see what the experience is to do that when you're not logged in!

Sure it'd be GREAT if those businesses didn't do that, but the alternatives aren't great and I'm not going to pressure them into reforming social media when they're just trying to make money off of selling an ice cream cone; they've got it hard enough!

It is hard for those businesses, but I think we need to realize why they post their info on Instagram. It's because that's where their customers are. If more people are on there, they will cater to them on that platform (for the business). If people were to start using other services, the businesses would cater to them that way. If you'd rather businesses not post their info on whatever app, then don't use that app. That's the reason they do it.

I've been without Facebook or Instagram for over 6 years, it's totally optional. I sell stuff on Nextdoor and the dozens of other buy/sell/trade apps. I connect with my family via text/calls/video or other apps. People don't want to be the first to get off of a platform and convince others, and then we get into this situation where we think it isn't optional.

Facebook marketplace is such a gold mine, it's so annoying.

I had 3 pieces of lightly used Ikea furniture I wanted to get rid of. 2 weeks of craigslist with no bites. 2 hours of facebook market place and I offloaded them easy.

Completely anecdotal here, from within a small city. But people trust FB market place much more than CL for what that's worth.

As someone who has never used Facebook, why is their marketplace more trustworthy than Craigslist?

Beats me! It sure moves product faster though.

What's stopping you taking a purely transactional approach to using those sites? You can post on FB Marketplace or stay logged into Instagram without ever needing to scroll the feed, give out likes, or engage in pointless arguments. It's not like you get reputation points for engaging in all the toxic behaviors.

Nothing is, so that's exactly the approach I take with them! I recommend it! My response is to absolutist positions like "delete your account" and "well it's not a /necessity/ so they should be able to do whatever they want."

> These are completely non-essential services in every way.

This perspective is completely neglecting that a significant portion of the developing world communicates almost exclusively via Facebook/WhatsApp. For communicating with people in those parts of the world, these services become essential in every way that matters.

Not just the developing world. FB Messenger is practically the de facto standard in NZ and Australia too.

There are countries where mobile phone operators will give you free Facebook Messenger/Instagram (sometimes WhatsApp), but not Telegram or Signal...making the use of a Facebook product practically mandatory if you want to connect with certain people.

Saw numerous banners when I visited the Philippines, here's an example: https://smart.com.ph/About/newsroom/full-news/2019/11/08/sma...

I feel like this comes up again and again. For some people Instagram or Facebook are sometimes the only way to communicate with new peers without introducing too much friction. In France, for example, most of my friends will exclusively use Instagram when connecting with new people.

Are there no other options? Do your friends use them exclusively because they are sticky? Is there actually a feature that makes them unable to use other apps?

I find a lot of times, people just don't want to change, regardless of whether they should. I was the first to delete my Facebook in my group of friends, and now they all have, and my family has mostly jumped ship as well.

I'm sure your friends can use something else, they just choose not to.

Some companies and governments only communicate through social media.

Right, they choose not to invest more time and thought into something else. That's why the pattern of the social media bait and switch is frustrating.

The company made a promise. People bought that promise.

Company changes the promise and puts a bow on it and dresses it up. Company only notes the promise in the fine print. But because it already has the power and because people don't want to be on alert 100% of the time (because that can actually kill you), the deception works.

So you bring up a fallacy. The actual option here is "pay attention to every company you use to communicate all the time" or don't pay attention and accidentally agree to something not well advertised.

Interesting fact, Facebook has an F rating on the BBB's website.

Of course, the very first complaint on there is an interesting one that completely misconstrues the first amendment right, but again, that's just interesting.

(https://www.bbb.org/us/ca/menlo-park/profile/social-media-ma...)

Of course they can use something else. The very vast majority just want to talk to each other, not spend energy moving as many people as they can to their preferred platform to do the same thing.

How about face-to-face? That's how we used to do it before we all carried phones.

At a certain point, arguments like this become out of date. You don't need cars, electricity, phones, email, citizenship, or even a name to survive. The only essential things are being able to forage/hunt, find running water. But as a civilized society we strive to raise the bar. At this point social media is an essential service, people just haven't caught up to it yet.

Essential to whom? For example, I used to be a consumerist pig, but when I trimmed the fat by deleting YouTube, Reddit, FB Messenger, Whatsapp and Instagram off my phone, I suddenly felt like I could breathe again. Now I spend my time during the day doing the things I love (hobbies).

P.S. I've kept HN because, you know... the last bastion of reasonable discourse.

Only tangentially related, but is social media a net positive for society? An argument could be made for any of those things you named alongside it which have now become modern essentials, but does social media belong in that list? Instead of democratizing access to social media maybe the answer is to cut off the tentacles these firms use to maintain their grip over our society?

My personal opinion is it's a net negative. But it's also a hydra of an idea that people are hooked on.

Cut the tentacles and they'll grow back with little issue.

You could argue the same for speech or literacy. Free speech lets people organize gangs and crimes; literacy lets people learn how to commit crimes or learn about legal loopholes. Ignorance is bliss, so why not revert to medieval times where the church and monarchy keep people safe and happy in little bubbles of ignorance?

Social media is far from an essential service. Name one aspect of it that you deem essential which cannot be taken care of elsewhere. I've managed along just fine without Facebook and the like, along with many other people. Essential does not mean convenient.

Your lack of experience with businesses or information that is only available through social media is not on me to correct. Especially in places like 3rd world countries or small businesses everywhere.

Please go see a doctor.

It's a little bit more complicated. Some companies only provide support through Facebook, WhatsApp etc. Even some governments use them as their main information channel. In the pandemic the only way to watch the live press conferences was on Facebook. Only ours later they were available on YouTube.

WhatsApp is the dominant/default form of communication in a lot of countries. It's as essential as telephone and postal service.

They're becoming more and more essential. The last time I applied for a passport, the only working way to check the status of my application was via Twitter.

What country?

Ireland. They supposedly have a live chat feature on their official website as well, but that was always broken when I tried it.

Jesus christ. Is this seriously the argument for everything now? You realize how useless saying that is?

Only in the sense that staying in touch with people is non-essential...

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