Ian Knot (2003) | Hacker News Reader

Ian Knot (2003)

fieggen.com

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Many years ago I tied my shoes with something called Perry's Perpectual knot[1][2], and then haven't had to retie my shoes since.

At worst the knot will get a bit loose from time to time (like maybe once a year), and then it takes a few seconds to tighten it again.

I expect my shoes will fall apart (they're already pretty old) before this knot unties.

[1] - https://web.archive.org/web/20051203081429/http://web.ukonli...

[2] - http://i.imgur.com/mzyXuet.png

Ian's secure knot (https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm) has been my go-to for similar purposes, it holds up even to running and other exercise quite well though I re-tie those each time because I like them too tight to slip off. But for daily shoes (which I leave looser and just slip on and off) I've now gone through 3 or 4 pairs in the last 10 years and the shoes or laces always break before the knot comes undone.

Super easy to untie, as well, if needed.

+1. I retie my shoes every time I wear them because I prefer them quite tight, but Ian's secure knot almost never comes untied. I usually only retie while wearing if I didn't tie my shoes tight enough in the first place.

Also on my Solovair boots, I used quick tight lacing [0], which gives you the outer "straight lacing" appearance but also allows you to make the boots very tight without spending 5 minutes to tie them. The main issue with this technique is that the laces can shift, but I marked the center of the laces with a Sharpie to serve as a guide.

[0] https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/quicktightlacing.htm

Before I switched to Perry's Perpetual knot, I liked using the Turquoise Turtle Shoelace Knot.[1]

It's almost exactly like the "standard" shoelace knot I've used most of my life, but with just an extra tuck, and it virtually never unintentionally gets untied. It's fast, easy to put on and easy to take off. Highly recommended.

[1] - http://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/turquoiseturtleknot.htm

I made the switch 3 months ago and went from my laces coming undone around once per km or two to once in 3 months, and that was on purpose to tighten it like you say. I wish they'd taught me this in kindergarten! A lifetime of potential trips averted.

What's the point of having laces if you leave them tied up all the time? Aren't the shoes too loose? Why don't you wear loafers instead?

you need the laces to adjust the fit

loafers sole isn't usually strong enough for outdoor use. old sneakers with the rear part bent in and laces tightened enough to slip in with ease while not falling out are great for quick trips like to take out the trash or walk the dog, so you don't wear and tear your good shoes.

You can also tie your laces with a reef knot which has no loops to catch on anything and untie.

If you're wearing hiking boots, you can go once around the back to reduce the lace lengths and then make the knot.

I’ve been using reef knot with extra turns (looks like the so called “surgeons” knot, but the top part also has extra turns), and can second the suggestion. it never has loosened or caught on something. also, because of extra turns, it never jams and can be easily untied even with one hand. just have to use shorter laces.

The advantage of Perry's Perpetual is that it's easily adjustable, so you can get the perfect tightness (which is critical for me to get in and out of my shoes without needing to untie the knot).

I can't quite parse the imgur instructions; in the first image, the pink lace enters from the left of the image; next image it enters from the right, then from the left again. And the images on the archive aren't loading for me :( Really want to try this one out - any other references?

I believe the 3rd image is wrong in that the pink should always stay above the green. The basic idea is you take two loops and then wrap the loose end of the lace around the middle 4 strands twice (or three times) and then finish by putting the loose end between the 4 strands in the middle (pink pair on above, green pair below) and then pull/dress it tight. It helps using the instructions from the site with the broken links to interpret the imgur images:

1. Pick up the laces. 2. Cross the laces over like this... (but don't have them looping into each other like in the picture) 3. and back, leaving loops either side 4. Take the left lace underneath... 5. then back over the top... 6. and wrap round underneath again... 7. and back over the top again. 8. Now similarly with the other lace... 9. underneath, but the other way... 10. then wrapping round as before. 11. Push the lace through the four centre strands. 12. And the same with the other. 13. Then tighten the knot up. 14. Finally, here is an alternate one with an extra turn (at step 10.5).

This is a great shoelace knot as it loosens and cinches tight without untying.

The links to the images in [1] are broken. Is there any alternative link to the instructions?

The images that are missing from [1] are in [2]

Very cool, shocking that this may be the only mention of it on the internet because Google shows 0 search results for it.

Previous related discussions:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16454796

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26867300

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24091391

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22053698

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21153182

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15282752

I had a very cool physics teacher who taught the class this around 2004. Not sure how many stuck with it, but I haven't looked back.

For centuries virtually every single person tied their shoelaces every day, and it can be done so much better! It took one guy to take a critical look and create a better way. That was a real eye opener. If true for shoelaces, it's true for a lot more things. That's your daily dose of inspiration ;)

I love Ian's site. It's such a good example of how you can really get geeky (in the most positive way possible) with almost anything. I'm a bit of a sneakerhead, and one good way to freshen up a pair of old kicks is new laces — perhaps even in an untraditional configuration, like lattice lacing.

I had no idea that Ian had invented this method of tying shoes. I've been using and loving it ever since i saw a gif of it on Reddit about a decade ago.

The (2003-2021) in the title made me think that it was no longer the 'fastest shoelace' record holder and had now been beaten by another knot but fortunately I see that that is knot the case.

Pun has always been a knotty subject on HN.

I learned this about 8 years ago and have been doing it ever since. You also develop good muscle memory for the motion, so I can typically grab both laces and tie them without looking.

My main issue with the Ian knot is that the standard half (overhand) knot you need as a base is taking most of the time now.

Any pointers to improve that?

I don't use the Ian knot, but Ian suggests using the same motion as when tying the loops, but pull the loops all the way through

Does anyone else remember a TV commercial (probably for shoes) that ended with someone tying a shoelace this way (or very similar)? I learned it from that commercial, but I forgot what it was advertising so I could never find it again.

(ETA I just slip my foot in and out of shoes without having to tie/untie them at all, saving even more time than this knot. This is known as the Hannifin Slip and I'm the inventor.)

I suppose it’s pedantic to be annoyed that he’s calling this an “Ian knot” when it’s the standard shoelace knot, a slipped square knot, and not anything new.

The change it in how you tie it, not in the resulting knot.

Many people are tying their shoes with slipped granny knot. There was a ted talk with some geezer teaching people to turn the bows in the opposite direction. But it’s way simpler to learn to twist the laces in the first knot opposite and then you get the square knot. You can easily tell the difference by the direction of the bows. Square has bows perpendicular to the shoe, Granny twists the bows more parallel to the shoe.

A knot is not just the end result though, it's also how you tie it.

That is incorrect. The final position is what determines that knot. There can be many ways to get there, but they are all considered one knot.

Search for how to tie alpine butterfly for an example of a knot that are many ways to tie, but all are considered the same knot.

Ukrainian crew represent: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/ukrainianlacing.htm

TBH, its effectiveness depends on the friction of the actual lace material -- some of them are so smooth that it still requires loosely tying the loops across the resulting knot just to keep the pressure on it, but to me it still feels faster and smoother, and ultimately it makes me happy so I keep using it

For shoelace knots, the difficulty also matters.

I recently about a shoelace-practice book [1] for my 4yo daughter. This book shows a couple of ways to knot, and one of them, called "bunny ear bow" [2] is easier than the traditional "double-loop". I hope these knot-inventors pay more attention to the ease side so that kids can start knotting by themselves earlier. That could be thanked more than inventing a tricky-but-fast methods for adults.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Your-Shoes-Cottage-Door-Press/dp/1680...

[2] https://www.news24.com/news24/southafrica/local/hillcrest-fe...

Salomon Quicklace is the solution for all lacing worries

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgYYeJpo2fk

They are also selling retrofit kits

I don't know how that can be patented when my snowboard boot inserts lace the same way; I find it highly suspicious that 32 licensed a lacing technology from those Salomon folks

> I find it highly suspicious that 32 licensed a lacing technology from those Salomon folks

Why? Seems perfectly reasonable to me. It would be like a outdoor jacket manufacturer licensing the use of Goretex technology in their branded jackets.

Because I have a hard time imagining myself in the conference room where they're like, wow, our boots are great, but who here knows how to lace them up? Nobody? Ok, then let's pay these randos some licensing fees. Alice from legal, can you start contractual negotiations for how much money, or percentage of our boot sales, we're going to pay randos. Bob from manufacturing, can you start investigating how we're going to retool our boot line to fold in this new technology? I'm sure there are a bazillion other logistical moving parts that I can't even imagine

For laces.

I'll also point out, without one shred of irony, that the reason I bought those 32 brand boots is for their innovative boot lacing system (Boa). Maybe they licensed that, too

Fair enough.

I personally imagined much more of a "well we're a shoe company...anyone got any ideas for new models? Well then, how about one with fancy laces?" situation, and that seemed plausible enough.

Unfortunately my family didn't pay close attention when I was taught how to tie my shoes, so I ended up using a granny knot until my 30's.

After googling I figured out the problem, but it took me probably a month to internalize the new knot (the worst being the 3rd or so phase when the new move becomes natural and you don't have to think about it anymore, but sometimes your brain just flips a 50/50 coin as to whether it'll use the old or the new method).

One thing that shoelace teachers seem to get wrong is teaching with empty shoes. In reality shoelaces are tied under tension. This affects the grip we used or what the rest of the hand is doing. Small wonder children find it difficult.

Even the Ian's knot demo uses an empty shoe. Since I haven't learnt his tying technique, can anyone please say if it works under tension?

In exchange I'll give you a free tip on how to dry your shoes. Remove the insoles and wedge inside a ball of absorbent paper such as kitchen towel for 10 minutes. Remove and then insert a vacuum cleaner nozzle inside. Switch on the vacuum and leave it running for 20 minutes or until dry.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/782216-everything-is-intere...

I know probably 40 knots. I use the ol' double slipped reef knot for my shoes. Sometimes I tie a granny knot by accident and then I back out the second loop and finish a reef knot. Sometimes I capture the whole thing in another slipped loop if the laces are way too long. Sometimes I double or triple up the knot.

It really doesn't matter what knot I use to tie my shoes. The shoelaces make way more difference than the knot. I can triple-knot my laces, and if they've no tooth, they're gonna come undone. If they have tooth a-plenty and I use a single knot, they aren't going anywhere. It doesn't matter, because even if they come untied, I'll just tie them again. If I really want them to stay, I don't ship them, and weave the running ends back into the laces.

> Because it was tied much more quickly and symmetrically, the laces suffer less wear and tear and thus last longer.

Might these claims also fall victim to the replication crisis?!

I've been doing something about halfway between this and a more traditional method for a couple decades. Presumably I've saved a few hours by now; but watch out! If you're like me, you'll no longer be able to tie those hospital garments behind your back any more, as the muscle memory crucially relies on the relative position of the starting knot -_-

I mentioned to Ian that in my household it's called the "All-day Knot" and he agreed that was probably a more suitable name but by then he'd had this page up so long it'd be no use to change it at that point.

(longtime user of the site, obvi.)

/Acey

Wow, a site completely dedicated to shoe laces... I think someone has found their niche!

Ian's "Starting Knot" is traditionally known as a half-hitch.

I mean... it is but... the optimization isn't something worth the time.

Ian Knot is dope! Once I learned this existed I was really stoked about tying my shoes for like a week or two, as idiotic as that sounds. Not only is it pretty quick and eliminates stuck knots frustrating untying attempts, which is fine I guess, but it is actually better than whatever the hell I was doing before.

I've felt embarrassed if my shoes became untied, its just kind of unbecoming. Ever tie your shoes and the damn knot goes sideways, with the loops coming from the top and bottom? Well here's the cure to all of your knot compulsions.

Notice just below the instructions on TFA:

   NOTE: If your finished knot comes out crooked, it's probably because you tie your Starting Knot the opposite way to mine. This will result in an un-balanced “Granny Knot”, which both sits crooked and comes undone more easily. See my Granny Knot page for more information.

The Ian Knot is great because the knot works properly wrt how the strings pull against each other. He also explains how and why to have loops and strings come out the sides perfectly, and with the knot round shoe laces like on dress shoes, leather laces, work boots, whatever will basically never come undone.

Good knot, and really easy. It'll take you about 15 minutes to master, an hour or so if you have poor dexterity.

I made the switch a few years ago and it took me 3-4 days to get it down. Now I can’t even do it the other way without thinking.

If you look strictly at the # of seconds spared it might not seem important. But those seconds are often spent in an uncomfortable position which makes them worth more. Or it might be when you are out running and don't want to lose the groove. Or you might be teaching your child how to do it, and you want to simplest solution possible.

Why not? 2 times 5 seconds saved each day are an hour per decade.

Also the psychological benefits of doing something well.

Using the slip-on method, I tie my shoes probably once every 6 months or so. They're double knotted.

But now I'm also keeping an eye out for over-optimizing.

I've been using this knot for many years now. It's quick and easy, but it slips with some laces. It's really annoying, but I can't get myself to change knots.

Do one or two loops more.

I just use the reverse normal knot, And I've never had a problem with it coming undone since I switched to that. The only truly useful thing I've learned from a TED talk.

For those interested:

https://www.ted.com/talks/terry_moore_how_to_tie_your_shoes

It seems to depend on the starting knot maintaining tension, which I have never experienced.

All that great instruction and what worked for me was just slowing that gif down.

Learned this from basketball player in college.

Or use velcro, which is even faster.

This year I decided to just stop untieing my shoes. Now I just slide them on and off still tied. It's by far the fastest and best way to use shoes. And once you tie them well once, they don't come undone while walking.

> Now I just slide them on and off still tied.

Normally a good way to ruin the back of the collar though, especially if they have achilles support structures (like some running shoes.)

Source: many of my shoes with ruined collars.

This is certainly true of shoes with those plastic inserts around the back. I mostly wear casual shoes, specifically the Adidas gazelles which do not have anything rigid on the back and have a low friction leather outside which makes slipping them on easy.

Shoehorn helps with that.

But this doesn't work if you like he shoes to fit tightly and not wiggle around while walking, right?

They are sufficiently tight for me, no wiggle. It does depend on the shoe though. With some its very easy and some its hard and risks damaging the back.

Or shower slides - on the current trajectory they will be formal wear within a couple of years.

Or just buy slip-on shoes only.

(Granted, that's potentially a nonstarter if you have a dress code to meet, but so is Velcro.)

Or tension adjuster/release dials--I hope these don't go out of fashion.

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