Just work hard | Hacker News Reader

Just work hard

thehundreds.com

111 pointsantigua41 comments

As a millennial who actually works his ass off I always feel somewhat compelled to respond to these. Many of my friends who just graduated, especially non-developers, actually want nothing more than to put in hard work and get stuff done. Unfortunately the few jobs that are out there for young people rarely actually involve working hard if it is building towards a career. Sure, you can go off and work your ass of as a waiter, but if you want to go into something that's going to give you a long term career (an internship or intro office job), guess what: you wont be required to work nearly as hard as you can, and it will fucking bore you, and will not require even 20 hours a week of actual work, and in the end you will have pushed some papers around. When you compound this with the fact that the cultural presentation of work that we've gotten for our entire lives is that "it sucks and there's nothing you can do about it" (something I whole-heartedly disagree with), it's no wonder our generation is "lazy."

Millennials "lack direction" (at least in work) because they are being told over and over again that they are in the most fun time of their lives, it's all down hill from here, and that there is no chance at a fulfilling work life. Outside of software engineering, there is little "hard work" available that actually builds towards a career. Finally, when you add in the massive moral ambiguity of working at many companies (Philip Morris seems to own half the country), it again becomes very difficult to become motivated about work. I think most of us really do want to work hard and accomplish things but it is really not clear how to do that.

I also have to wonder how much of this perceived lack of hard work is because of changes in the social contract between workers and employees. As late as the '70s, there was an implicit contract between employers and employees. Employees work hard, and in return, employers take care of them.

Starting with the '80s and continuing through today, that contract (outside of a select few firms) has been thoroughly eroded. We are no longer workers, we are human resources. It doesn't matter how many years of service we have, the next senior management shuffle can mean the abrupt end of our employment with that firm. These changes mean that there is no payoff in being loyal to an employer. Given that, its no wonder that others see Millenials as being shiftless and disloyal. What's the reward for hard work in a corporate environment, when the continued existence of your job is more dependent on the vagaries of senior management politics than your performance?

Here, here! I've worked at large, enterprise organizations for 15+ years and always resented the concept of Human Resources. At the enterprise level, there is little to no payoff for loyalty other than possible redundancy, when HR found someone who could do your job for half the pay. I suspect this is all a symptom of business school education trends over the last 40 years or so. I don't think there is any fault or blame to lay, but rather we as a society have to step back and begin doing what's right socially instead of economically. Do that, and economics will likely take care of itself.

I tend to agree with Daniel Pink's assessment[1]. The reality of the situation is that us millenials have grown up in an age of instant feedback.

Older generations tend to view this as emotional neediness, but the reality is that feedback is necessary for a healthy work environment. When we don't get that feedback, we tend to disengage and assume we're either not important enough to get feedback, or our workplace is ambivalent to our presence.

[1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/8113600/Think-Tank-F... - just posted it here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2773834

I think the problem here is that not all employers will challenge you. In my mind, the key to finding enjoyment in your work if it's not challenging is to challenge yourself. Unless your job is oppressive to self direction there is nothing stopping you or anyone else from creating or doing something that is positive for the business and challenging for you. As a few examples you could find ways to optimize a system that is inefficient (it doesn't even need to be at the software level), analyze information about your customers, find ways to save money, research ways to get new clients, etc. A side benefit to challenging yourself is that you will find it quite rewarding. I can highly recommend Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's book on "flow" in regards to the phenomenon around it.

I think what I'm trying to say is by challenging yourself to be more than what it is your employer expects out of you results in a net win for both you and your company.

This is a nice idea, but unfortunately in many cases getting the information and power you require to solve the problems is blocked by seniority. You have to keep in mind, outside of development many many industries are still essentially seniority not performance based. For instance, if I work in HR and there is something fundamentally wrong with the way we are recruiting, it's not as simple as whip up a prototype, in many cases you'll actually need for someone (ie: a superior) to be fired in order to really affect change. It's not easy to address important inefficiencies within the company without pointing out that someone is fucking up their job.

As for the inefficiencies you CAN fix, this seems like a standard part of any job (and life to be honest). If you see problems in your job that you actually can and know how to improve and you aren't improving them, that's an entirely different issue.

I agree completely. I work at a company that is small about 25 people, but I engage in this quite often. The company is rather open about everything. I have access to just about everything I need except for the company bank accounts, which I do not want. This provides with a lot access to do a lot of this flow analysis. However the two greatest challenges I still have to overcome are 1)Buy-In from the higher ups to actually use the data/analysis and 2)the time to keep it up. I often feel, for multiple reasons, that I shouldn't be spending time on these endeavors. However, I still seem to always have a 'project'.

I also agree with the grandparent post. There's always something to do, and something more that could be done to make a project interesting.

However, I've often been frustrated by the effort required to get buy-in or recognition from higher-ups. I often found myself wanting to contribute more, but sometimes it seemed like a sisyphean task and not worth the effort (especially once you start balancing compensation and effort).

Sometimes it feels like HN is descending into a self-help group for intelligent but certified procrastinators. Does the consumption of such articles and other forms of self-help literature actually inspire you to create and do? Is the discussion of doing a form of action or the prelude to it?

Just follow my patented 3-D treatment program for hardcore procrastinators. Decide, declare, and do. Just stay clear of the 3 Es: explanations, extensions and excuses.

The press always make it look so easy. This post was actually refreshing for the ones of us slaving away hours of their weekends working while others play.

So yes this helps.

Hey, wait a minute, you are procrastinating on HN just like the rest of us. Pfffft, working ....

Just because an individual is browsing HN does not mean the individual is procrastinating. Please consult a dictionary for an accurate definition of the term.

I think the right term has 4 letters, starts with a j, ends with an e, and has an ok in the middle.

At some point in my life I was into NLP (neuro-lingustic programming - just few bits of practical psychology.

What I've found - many dreamers do not need to achieve it - they already experienced what they are dreaming about and it is the same as to achieve it for them. It's like watch a trailer for a movie and then get bored in the movie theater..

There is opposite side - people who never dream and find any excuse to not think about possible future..

I believe, right way is in the middle - you have to dream, but only so much to start wanting to get there. And never try to experience the whole thing in a dream.

So we should teach kidos to dream, but only enough to ignite the spark, but not to burn it full.. Have no clue how to do this tho...

Poster may be talking about something similar to this

http://www.ted.com/talks/derek_sivers_keep_your_goals_to_you...

"After hitting on a brilliant new life plan, our first instinct is to tell someone, but Derek Sivers says it's better to keep goals secret. He presents research stretching as far back as the 1920s to show why people who talk about their ambitions may be less likely to achieve them."

From my experience, telling everybody around may work both ways - it may put you in to frame where you HAVE to get to your target, or get enough discussion to experience it and forget about it. But in general, I would say yes - for me it is better to keep things in secret, try to build dependencies on these targets and slowly go through it.

I think there is something to it. In any case, kids (as well as adults) need to remember that dreaming is only part of the deal, that they still need to reach towards the goal, not just imagine it. Working towards a dream has to become a habit.

Nope, you've just been having the wrong dreams. Find the right ones and it won't matter how much you dream about it, when you get there it will be just as good.

I disagree. Dream and want it "so bad you can taste it". Then work hard to achieve it.

Brain do not have real distinction for dreams and real stuff. If you "live through" your dream - this is the same for your brain as to actually get all inputs from the outside world - that's what I am talking about.

What you are talking about - to dream enough to want it "so bad you can taste it", but not actually "taste" it. That's where you get hooked into going through A, B, C .... to get finally to Z.

I.e. there is fine balance. The question - how to find this balance and how to teach kidos to master it.

PS: IMHO =)

I was going to ask HN yesterday how many unfinished app they currently have. This stems from the fact that a developer with a popular app told me currently he has 30+ unfinished apps in his IDE right now. Naturally, I started to feel good about the my 4-5 projects that are unfinished right now.

But, the truth is this isn't school. School strives on following through, passing every test, rinse and repeat. In the world of business you only need one.

"The point of all this is that it doesn’t matter how many times you fail. It doesn’t matter how many times you almost get it right. No one is going to know or care about your failures, and (n)either should you. All you have to do is learn from them and those around you because

All that matters in business is that you get it right once.

Then everyone can tell you how lucky you are." - Mark Cuban

My point being, so what if their t-shirt company failed, onto the next one. These guys get it.

[btw Antigua are you from Antigua in the Caribbean?]

I have (1) MS thesis, (1) half-finished prototype for a desktop app, (1) idea of a ios app, (1) idea of a niche MUD.

But I also work at a BigCorp, so I'm perhaps atypical.

I gave up on having one zillion unfinished programs a year or two ago, when it became apparent nothing was getting meaningfully done.

Work hard, eh? I'm sure the author has spent many years contemplating this unique advice. I've got more fatherly advice while we're at it: save money, try your hardest, don't put your elbows on the table, and close the door, you're air conditioning the entire neighborhood.

In all seriousness, did anyone else find this post incredibly condescending? If the new generation has these problems (and I don't think they do anymore than the generations before), it's going to take a lot more than platitudes to solve our problems.

I just realised my generation is now old enough to be complaining about younger generations.

I think the only "generational" debate worth having these days will be the funding of the pensions (promised to people but not always saved for) and medical procedures of the long-lived baby boomers whilst simultaneously dealing with the debt mountains in the West. The debt in the West is approaching, I think may have exceeded in some instances, levels just after the end of WWII. A nice big screen TV doesn't quite have the same quality as defeating fascism.

Yes, it's funny how that makes you feel old, isn't it? Every friggin generation has people who complain about the younger ones lack of direction. I'm not worried though - They too will grow up.

Yeah, but the real problem is the younger younger generation. Those kids have no direction. You should see them...

Putting in the hard work is a huge part of being successful, no doubt, but this article talks as if it is the ONLY important thing, which I disagree with.

You can easily end up working hard on the wrong thing. Writing an app or building a startup that sells something nobody wants for example. There are plenty of people working super hard on already doomed projects because they didn't do enough market research or listen to the right people.

You have to work hard AND get a lot of other stuff right as well to have any chance of success. There are plenty of things you can do e.g. automating tasks and outsourcing that don't require extra work but can improve your chances of success.

Forgive me if this seems obvious, it just bothered me how the article tried to sell hard work as a silver bullet. I don't think it's that simple.

It seemed to me that the article wasn't saying it was the only important thing, but that it was the one thing most likely to be missing.

I think for the HN crowd (generally not a lazy bunch), this may come off as a bit trite. But what the author is saying here is not confounded. I have plenty of friends who fall into this category. They fail to realize that in order to get somewhere, you have to work your ass off. Not to mention, his remark about caring about popularity and fame over having a nice family or caring for others is spot on. There are a lot of intelligent kids ambling about, carelessly making choices that for the most part will not help them to excel or move forward in life. For those that it applies to, this is a good article.

Hard work alone is often not sufficient. The real solution is to work hard but also to work smart. You need to find a balance between slogging just to get things done and innovating to reduce the slog required in the future. This applies not apply to physical tasks but also to learning. When learning a new skill/subject it's easy to expend a lot of effort reading whole books and articles without taking the leap of getting your hands dirty and applying your learning, but without doing so you can't build the neural connections required to learn.

Also I would say "hard work" is a bad metaphor. More important parts are:

1) (as you said) "work smart"

2) "enjoy your work"

and only then 3) "work hard"

I know I am nitpicking, but is there a reason that a huge semi-transparent dark box is in the middle of my screen, informing me that:

Notice

JavaScript for Mobile Safari is currently turned off.

Turn it on in Settings > Safari to view this website

I do not quite see any content that requires the use of JavaScript, nor does the noscript handler identify my browser, Firefox 5, correctly.

  A truly invaluable life is comprised of the journey

Something worth remembering in all aspects of life, not just your career. Without the low-points the highs aren't as noticeable, and, in my experience, some of the hardest things I've experienced are also some of the memories I cherish the most.

I wish I could express this view in a less cheesy fashion, but I don't think I can. It's a cliché, but it also often happens to be the truth.

I wonder if his observations about "millennials" is actually true. I'm always skeptical when people refer to (especially) younger generations and their flaws, it reminds me of a grumpy old man. "Kids were tougher back in my days! Knew the value of hard work and a dollar! Nowadays they got their MTV and their eyePhones, I'm telling ya this country's falling apart!".

However, we live in a different world now. Means of production have opened up to virtually anyone; whether your writing software for computers, producing films, music, t-shirts, etc. It can pretty much all be done with a laptop and your basement. Channels of distribution have also opened up too, so anyone's work can easily be accessed, purchased, and collaborated by anyone else in the world. By these factors alone, we'd expect to see a higher volume of low and high quality work. I don't think its necessarily true the younger generations don't understand hard work, but that we see much more success and failure together.

Things have always been degenerating.

This is totally missing the point. Everybody I know is working hard and is keen to work hard to achieve things. But today it's not easy. 30 years ago you could work hard and you had good chances to succede. Today you may end up working up to update a power point, or because the boss doesn't use vba and you have to do all things manually.

I mean, work hard is a really, really, bad metaphore. It is more about learning good and useful stuff. Which is also kind of diffucult having seen the total absurd that universities have become.

Let's not forget that work is a vector quantity: direction is as important (or more important) than magnitude.

Also, it's important to understand the relationship between work and productivity. I knew a wannabe programmer who once bragged about how much "hard work" he put into an 8-hour day of manually tweaking data, when he could have written a program to do it in a half hour.

Yes. There are also the superstars that just put in 8 hour days but manage to get more meaningful work done than anybody else in the office.

I'm going to side-step the generational flame-war and point out a few things.

First of all, we don't live in a culture that values hard work. To be fair, maybe it shouldn't. Hard work at something pointless is just wasted effort. But we should toss the hypocrisy by which we claim to value "hard work" when what we really value (as a culture) in people is the resources they already have. The Randists and conservatives and big-business lapdogs dress corporate executives up as "society's most creative and productive individuals" but this isn't true. As a society-- we worship consumption, in the guise of jet-set executives who consume the earth's resources and in that of celebrities who consume others' attention-- and production and hard work really aren't major concerns.

Consider the celebrity cult (the hatred and envy included, because the baseless hatred of him is as execrable as the pointless veneration) around a rather bland executive-- neither deserving of much admiration nor dislike-- of a rather boring but important and successful upstart company, a cult existing mainly because he's a billionaire in his 20s. No one know or cares if he worked hard to achieve what he did (I think it's obvious that he did, although he had ridiculously lucky breaks) but because he's rich, he's important.

"Millennials" don't see people who are rewarded or even respected for working hard. They see a culture of rent-seekers, lucky bandits, and celebrity that is based on celebrity alone. And if people are going to pin our cultural degeneracy on the Baby Boomers (a reasonable contention) it should not be based on what they said as parents but what they did in the marketplace.

The rugged individualism of Americans is amusing sometimes.

Ok, then, working hard in Nike factory would be a good start for many people. Work hard. Seek advice from right people. Outperform coworkers. Three years later you would be the CEO.

...No, I strongly disagree with this. Effort without significance to what you want in long term is waste of everything. If you're not sure what you want, the only effort you should be making is trying to come up with what you want to do. Effort chosen to be, designed to be, MUST be, beneficial to what you ultimately want to achieve is the only effort worth making.

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