The Yoghurt Mafia | Hacker News Reader

The Yoghurt Mafia

rnz.co.nz

183 pointscasca79 comments

This was an extremely entertaining story. Thank you for sharing it... It also makes me want to try and make yogurt. I grew up on a cattle ranch and we always had a milk cow. Yet, we never made yogurt more than a few times. I recently moved back near where I grew up as I got the opportunity for remote work. I have access to tons of fresh milk and fruit, I will definitely have to try this again.

We have an [Easiyo](https://easiyo.com/collections/frontpage/products/black-yogu...) that cost ~$20AUD, and we use one tablespoon of existing yogurt and ~150grams of milk powder (slightly more than suggested for milk, to make it thicker) to make 1 litre of yogurt at a time. (Just mix those bits; put boiling water in the Easiyo, put the container with the mixture in, wait 12 hours, done - no scolding, no temperature monitoring, super simple :-) )

It's incredibly easy, and now I search for more and more recipes that use yogurt to make different things (eg, flatbreads, cakes, pasta sauces, among lots of other things).

It's super easy and really awesome having yogurt forever available :-)

I'm going to pick one of these up tomorrow and I'm trying to work out how your modification fits in with the instructions on their website:

- Mix EasiYo Yogurt Sachet with room temperature drinking water (15-20°C) in the EasiYo Jar

- Add boiling water to the Yogurt Maker and place jar inside. Leave to set for 8-12 hours

- Refrigerate Yogurt until chilled. Enjoy

Are you cutting the amount of yogurt mix you put in short and adding milk powder? mixing the milk powder with water to create milk and then adding yogurt mix with that?

I was wondering the same, and looked up "hack easiyo", lots of examples of people coming up with their own ways to use the system, without having to purchase the EasiYo printer ink, so to speak.

When we first got it, I used one Easiyo sachet to make one container of yogurt. From then on, I've used 1 heaped tablespoon of the last batch of yogurt and then just milk powder.

My steps:

- Mix ~500ml tap water with 150g of milk powder (just put the lid on and shake vigorously, I always put the water in first as the mixing is much easier).

- Add 1 heaped tablespoon of existing yogurt (the previous batch, or I've used Chobani successfully (I've heard some commercial yogurts work and some don't)).

- Fill (leave 5mm gap at the top) the container with tap water.

- Shake again to mix (less vigorously).

- Add boiling water to maker.

- Put jar in.

- Generally I try to wait 12 hours, sometimes up to 18 when I'm not home.

- Refrigerate and enjoy :-)

I enjoy the yogurt straight, but I wouldn't expect everyone to (it may not be sweet enough) - my wife adds honey or jam and fruit when serving.

(I now actually freeze one tablespoon of yogurt as soon as a batch is done, and use it for the next batch after thawing in the fridge (overnight).)

Wow, that was an amazing read.

>But if there was irony, there was also a metaphor in their switch from meth to yoghurt. Like yoghurt, if the conditions are right, if there is patience and there is care, people can change and a new kind of culture can survive.

https://archive.is/WVddI

Is RNZ not available from outside New Zealand?

No idea. In this case I posted the link for those who, like me, dislike distracting multimedia tricks in what ought to be a straightforwardly scrollable news article.

I think I once got 'advised' to not post 'cold' links without a description, and also a reason. (And yes, at home, I safely clicked.

Gratuitous multimedia tricks. Here is a text-only version. Links to images in all available sizes are provided.

    curl https://rnz.shorthandstories.com/yoghurt-mafia/embed.js \
    |sed 's/<em>//g;s/<\/em>//g'|tr -cd '[ -~]'|grep -Eo '(<p c.{10}[^>]*>)|(https://[^ ]*.jpeg)' \
    |uniq|sed '/^https.*jpeg$/s/.*/<li><a href=&>&<\/a><\/li>/g' >1.htm;
    firefox ./1.htm

May I suggest a temp file? (and the other change is for a Mac)

  tmp=$(mktemp).htm; curl https://rnz.shorthandstories.com/yoghurt-mafia/embed.js \
    | sed 's/<em>//g;s/<\/em>//g'| tr -cd '[ -~]'|grep -Eo '(<p c.{10}[^>]*>)|(https://[^ ]*.jpeg)' \
    | uniq | sed '/^https.*jpeg$/s/.*/<li><a href=&>&<\/a><\/li>/g' > $tmp;
    open -a Firefox $tmp

It is (for non Kiwis here, it’s roughly the local equivalent of the BBC)

Reminds me of the Simpson's episode were the mafia had a racket selling rat milk. There's probably some symbolic double meaning to milking rats, that went over my head. The moment were the back room is revealed with the rats hooked up to milking machines, was gross and funny at the same time.

Malk

My bones are so brittle, but i always drink plenty of ... malk?

Now with Vitamin R.

I'd buy their yogurt, if they turned it into a business

Good article but I like Turkish yoghurt

500ml UHT + 1 tbsp of yoghurt + mid 20's (celcius) temp + 24-48 hours == 500ml of yoghurt.

I'd say it's as easy as pie but pie is far more of a challenge.

There’s something really satisfying about making yogurt. I make it a gallon at a time in an instant pot. The family loves it.

What was your original culture from, and how often do you start fresh? Do you strain? What do you store a gallon of yogurt in after you make it?

I make 1/2 gallon at a time and strain with a cheesecloth for a couple hours. The output fits into a large round pyrex container.

I second these questions. I use the Greek yogourt from a local dairy shop as starter and the results are amazing, but I have never been able to use my yogourt as starter for the next batch, no matter how fresh it is.

Just to clarify, I have been able to use one batch to start the next. I've used various yogurts from Whole Foods (2% or whole, but always plain/unflavored).

My first culture lasted through about 15 cycles (8 mo) before developing a weird blue cheese odor/flavor. When I started again, I also noticed the first batch of the new yogurt was substantially thicker than the last batch of the old yogurt.

Do you guys boil the milk before adding the culture?

Yup. Boil, let cool to 115F, add culture or frozen cube of previous yoghurt, into the instant pot for 9 hours.

I don't boil it, but I heat to to 72°C/162°F for at least 15 seconds, i.e. the recommended temperature and duration for pasteurization.

I just use the functions on my Instant Pot. The "Boil" function brings it to around 180°F. Then I let it cool to between 90-115°F before adding the yogurt. Then use the "More" function and it sets a timer for 12 hours ("Less" goes for 24, and I've never used it). All of these functions are available under the yogurt button on the Instant Pot.

My understanding is it may be possible to skip the boiling if you are using ultrapasteurized milk (lactose-free milk often is) from a just-opened container.

I used to scald milk (in an Instant Pot this is the yogurt "high" setting) before making yogurt, but no longer do so.

Now I buy UHT pasteurized milk, which encompasses most organic milk, and simply run 18 hours of the Instant Pot "medium" setting. I start the instant pot, add two half gallons of milk, then pour in some Bulgarian yogurt as a starter and stir, then lid on and leave it alone until it beeps at me.

I normally get around three gallons of yogurt out of a one quart jar of the Bulgarian, which comes in a conveniently Mason-threaded quart jar, where I hoard the leftovers for storing my own yogurt.

18 hours?! I’ve never heard of that for making yogurt. Is that a low temp pasteurization?

I’ve only done the usual 180F, followed by waiting for it to cool, finally add the starter and mix.

When I try to use UHT milk, I usually fail in making yogurt. But that may be because I do 6.5 hours and he's doing 18 hours. Perhaps you need to go so long with UHT?

Well he probably uses a machine (yaourtière in French) which maintains the pots at 40 degrees. My parents use this with UHT to do yoghourt.

Why did you switch from scalding regular milk to UHT? 18 hours is a long time to make yogurt. I do the scalding, let it cool in a fridge for an hour, and then make yogurt for 6.5 hours. This works for non-UHT milk (doesn't for UHT).

Not OP, but I've found that using UHT (or semi-UHT as many refrigerated organic milks are in Australia) works just as well as a heat->cool of non-UHT (after all, UHT is just milk that has been heated then cooled). So it's less work/fussing around/friction, and I end up making yoghurt more often. I usually do a 12 hour cycle. The heating (either at home, or via UHT) is necessary to modify the proteins so it thickens.

Interesting. For me (in the US), UHT was usually a failure - but as I said, I do it for only 6.5 hours. I could try doing it for longer, and I guess that's convenient for overnight. But otherwise, heating + 6.5 hours for regular milk is faster.

What I don't understand is: Why does heating + 6.5 hours work for non-UHT milk but not for UHT? It's not just me - I Googled at the time and many others had the same experience: UHT milk often fails. Like me, they all were doing 6-8 hours.

Googling now, I see lots of people arguing if UHT makes it harder to make yogurt or not. Personally, I'd like to see examples of people making decently thick yogurt (without straining) in under 7 hours with UHT (whether they scald or not).

This site[1] says there was a study done that showed unheated UHT was runnier than heated non-UHT. I didn't check the study to see how long they set it for.

This site[2] also points out that UHT for 10 hours was still quite runny. They had to add powdered milk to get it thicker.

[1] https://www.healwithfood.org/recipes/uht-milk-homemade-yogur...

[2] https://www.everynookandcranny.net/instant-pot-uht-milk-yogu...

So I haven't tried actual UHT; I use 'ultra-pasteurised' organic milk, which is refrigerated, but has a much longer expiry date than you would expect from milk, and you can taste the extra heat treatment. 8 hours works great and gives a thick yoghurt (haven't tried less than that; usually do overnight so around 12 hours). It does tend to get progressively less thick generation after generation. I use a supermarket organic plain yoghurt as a starter (there's a certain ratio of starter yoghurt to milk required - I use 4 Tbsp yoghurt to 1L milk)

The trick I've used is that I freeze cubes of the first batch in an ice-cube tray. Then whenever I make more, I unfreeze a cube, so I'm always making a "second generation" batch. My first generation I make from packets you can find online for ~$1.

Could you please post a link to the starter you use? I would truly appreciate it.

I've used this stuff https://www.npselection.com/products/yogurt-starter-cultures...

and also their Bulgarian style. Also available on amazon I believe. Balkan stuff is very neutral, rich. Bulgarian has a bit more tartness to it.

Thank you.

You might like to try kefir grains. They are very stable, I've had the same grains for 5+ years, and you can leave in the fridge for months if you like.

I used to use dedicated yogurt culture, but "kefir yogurt" tastes exactly the same to me, so I use it for everything (yogurt, goat cheese, kefir-the-drink, obviously).

Here's some more info: https://www.chelseagreen.com/2021/natural-yogurt/

Thank you for the recipe. I don't think I'll ever make it that way though. Stirring the milk non-stop until it reaches 185°F and then continuing to stir if for another hour is much more work than I'm willing to put in.

Milk kefir usually doesn't require any temperature control, it just goes faster when the ambient temp is higher. I believe the idea is that the kefir 'team' is able to easily outcompete any weed microorganisms. For me it's as simple as: Strain in plastic colander, rinse jar, put grains and fresh milk in jar, then place in cupboard. If I want to delay then it can be placed in the fridge instead for months/years and still be able to be revived later.

Apologies, should have read the link.. which is indeed about following a yoghurt-like process using milk kefir grains! But you don't have to do it that way, it can be really easy!

That's great. If you don't mind, I have two follow-up questions:

1. I believe kefir is usually the same consistency as buttermilk, not yogourt. How do you make them as thick as yogourt?

2. How do you keep your kefir grains alive? I don't use a huge amount of yogourt. Can you freeze grains between uses? How often do you need to make a new batch to keep the grains alive?

you strain the grains and add them to fresh milk every day. you can get them to make less by dividing the grains and tossing or eating some. It will get pretty thick if your bacteria are chugging out acid. My kefir would always end up not sour after a week or so. I could revive it for a bit by adding some lifeway kefir, but the ambient temp favored the yeast. A less cold fridge might let the grains run and favor the bacteria to keep it sour. Also lifeway kefir makes a good yogurt starter.

Thank you.

Yeah Kefir is usually only slightly thicker than buttermilk, but it can be strained to make it thicker. It doesn't form solid curds like yoghurt though, but has its own particular fractal-y curd structure.

When not in use I just put the jar in the fridge (as long as it's only been at room temp for <24h) and it can stay there for weeks slowly getting more sour. At some point the kefir becomes too sour to be palatable, but will recover just fine after a feeding or two. I also keep backup grains in water in the fridge for years and have revived one of those after 5 years or more! Apparently the grains can also be dried and revived after years as well but I haven't tried that.

There's lots of info about milk Kefir on Dom's Kefir In-Site (straight from the nineties web!):

http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html

I make a batch of kefir every few days. I just use UHT milk, which has already been sterilised in the pack.

It's usually just a 5-10 minute affair for me to strain out the fermented kefir and add a new pack of milk to the grains.

If you know any Indian family ask them. Most Indian households make yogurt every day and the culture is months even years old. They will use latest generation to make the next batch.

I've used Tillamook and brown cow as starters and they've been fine for a second batch at least.

I don't strain mine, instead i chuck in like half a cup/gallon of dry milk. It's sort of the bass ackwards method. Then I part it up into quart Tupperware.

Any one dollar plain yogurt from the supermarket works fine

Keep an eye out for faint orange "oil spills" on the surface or fizziness in the final product. Toss it if you encounter those and start over.

> Any one dollar plain yogurt from the supermarket works fine

A surprising number use additives to thicken them, and as I result I found I got better results from ones labeled Greek or acidophilus. I have no idea if there is any science behind this claim, so YMMV.

I've had a lot of success with plain Kirkland greek yogurt but most should work. I also do 1 gallon at a time and microwave it to get it up to temperature. This takes about 20min from fridge to desired temperature. After fermenting in my instant pot, I pour it into a fine mesh strainer on top of a large food container and put it in the fridge. The container is for the whey to collect in. This turns it into Greek yogurt.

Here's my lazy technique.

Get the biggest thermos flask you have. Get as much milk as it fits.

Get any yogurt. So far literally anything has worked: flavored, with added sugar or even the cheap versions with lots of gelatin.

Heat the milk around until it boils. Add sugar until it's slightly sweet but not too much (this will feed the culture. It won't be sweet after). Let it chill until 40c or slightly above body temperature.

Now mix in the yogurt, you need like 6 teaspoons for a liter milk, but just pour the container you have for good measure.

Pour the mix in the thermos flask and leave for aprox 4 hours, or until the whey separates. After that, the longer you wait the more acidic the yogurt gets.

Now time to strain. I put a sheet of coffee filter paper on the bottom of a pasta colander and another container beneath to collect the liquid. Pour the yogurt there, leave overnight in the fridge and you get thick Greek yogurt.

I got a powder culture from Amazon because I am using raw milk and it would just not work with yogurt from the store. There are several different cultures available in 10 or 12 sachets and you might need a new one every 6 months or so. I tried a few different ones and I cannot feel the difference between them.

Dairy products reminds me of Djokovic who after stopping to eat dairy and gluten products became an exceptional player, without injuries. Or my own experience, for different reasons, switching to locally foraged or produced fruits and feeling better overall, more energized, sleeping better

I wonder if that's the case for everyone, that we can eat dairy products, but it's just not optimal for us

I know nutritionists claim we are not "meant" to consume milk after 1-2 years old, but it's not my life's goal to become an athlete and eating cheese is optimal for me, in the sense it makes me "optimally happy" because good cheese is one of life's pleasures.

"good cheese is one of life's pleasures"

Unfortunately animals are usually harmed for this pleasure.

That's an example of moving the goalpost -- nothing about the comment I was replying to was about animal welfare.

In any case, if you don't eat cheese, I'm sorry for your loss. A good cheese and some ham, along with some fine wine! Makes life worth living.

>nothing about the comment I was replying to was about animal welfare.

Still doesn't invalidate his argument. Animals are harmed to produce dairy (Bobby calves), and this is a valid reason to avoid it.

It kind of does invalidate the argument in the sense of "it's irrelevant because it's not what we're discussing". Arguments are context sensitive, you have to actually make an argument about the thing being discussed, you cannot just react to some keyword in the text and go on a tangent.

I take it you also don't enjoy a good cut of cheese with a fine wine? A shame.

>It kind of does invalidate the argument in the sense of "it's irrelevant because it's not what we're discussing". Arguments are context sensitive, you have to actually make an argument about the thing being discussed, you cannot just react to some keyword in the text and go on a tangent.

I interpreted the discussion to be about the merits of dairy consumption. Animal welfare is definitely a reason to avoid it, just as cheese being one of the pleasures of life is a reason to eat it.

>I take it you also don't enjoy a good cut of cheese with a fine wine? A shame.

Mate, I'm a wog. Of course I drink wine. I ate a cheese sandwich 5 minutes ago and can still taste it. I just felt that your invalidation of his argument was weak.

Haha, fair enough. (I had to google "wog", to be honest!)

Just wait 'til they tell you about ham...

The harm is not just about the pain of those animals. Livestock farming pollutes a lot more than plant-pased food, it's a major contribution to global warming.

I feel like this is the number 1 concern and argument against livestock farming, global environmental "pain"

The cycle of methane lasts something like 20/30 years. If the number of livestock is constant in the world, their emissions will be too and they won't accumulate. Reducing our consumption of meat would help, especially if we can get all the world on board, but total elimination would be a waste of time and resources.

The claim is partly based on the fact that the majority of people stop producing lactase (the enzyme needed to digest milk sugar) at an early age.

Well aged cheese has little to no milk sugar, the cultures have eaten all of it. So, problem solved.

Humans should only consume UHT milk or highly fermented milk products, not normally pasteurized or unpasteurized milk. Milk protein consumption induces postprandial hyperinsulinaemia and shifts the growth hormone/insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) axis to permanently increased IGF-1 serum levels. Insulin/IGF-1 signalling is involved in the regulation of fetal growth, T-cell maturation in the thymus, linear growth, pathogenesis of acne, atherosclerosis, diabetes mellitus, obesity, cancer and neurodegenerative diseases, thus affecting most chronic diseases of Western societies. Of special concern is the possibility that milk intake during pregnancy adversely affects the early fetal programming of the IGF-1 axis which will influence health risks later in life.

Source?

Med Hypotheses . 2009 Jun;72(6):631-9. doi: 10.1016/j.mehy.2009.01.008. Epub 2009 Feb 15. Milk--the promoter of chronic Western diseases Bodo C Melnik 1 Affiliations expand PMID: 19232475 DOI: 10.1016/j.mehy.2009.01.008

As a yogurt (and occasional milk and cheese) lover, I feel I should be upset at you. The thick, bloated sensation in my gut area points to a kernel of truth in what you're saying though...

I think it’s possible to find high level athletes that take a variety of approaches towards nutrition.

I’ve always found Michael Phelps approach interesting although I wouldn’t recommend it (or a scaled down version of it)

https://olympics.com/en/featured-news/michael-phelps-10000-c...

Yes, just like Usain Bolt who would eat tens of burgers during Beijing olympics, and they both changed gradually, giving more importance to diet

Phelps eat mostly plant based food nowadays https://www.muscleandfitness.com/athletes-celebrities/interv..., when he was athlete, of course you need much more carbohydrates, so you would eat more

> I wonder if that's the case for everyone, that we can eat dairy products, but it's just not optimal for us

I think it depends a lot on people. Your point about "locally foraged" is good, but you have to take into account your ancestry. For example, I have ancestry in France and Italy, both places that used milk a lot during their history. This gives me better chances than someone with ancestry in Asia or Africa to be lactose tolerant. However in the end it doesn't matter, and the only way to know is to try out yourself and see how you react. For some people, it will improve their health (like how some people improve their health when they stop eating gluten), for others the impact will be negligable or not here at all. Everyone is different.

Only if the article merely reported the thing and had not descended into this narrative building..

They did not even offer a summary in the beginning.

It's a long form piece - it's not news. And there is a summary:

"Locked up for their part in a drug ring, two inmates swapped manufacturing meth for manufacturing yoghurt.

Eva Corlett finds out how they turned their product into a prison trading commodity so popular that yoghurt culture was smuggled between prisons."

What else are you looking for exactly?

The TL;DR is two guys, in prison for making meth, learned how to make yogurt from prison-available ingredients, and it kept them going through the hard times in prison. Now they're out, they don't make yogurt but they are staying straight. It's a character story, not a business lesson with a three bullet-point redux.

And, in fact, paragraph two is the summary you were after:

> They don’t know it yet but that moment will change their lives. Not only will they go on to make yoghurt using heat from the radiator pipes running through their cells, they’ll turn yoghurt into a prison trading commodity so popular it will be smuggled between New Zealand jails. Wal and Dylan will become known as The Yoghurt Mafia, and their new obsession will give them a reason to carry on in a relentlessly bleak environment.

I'm not sure where your "if only" came from, but it's unjustified. Back in your can, Oscar!

Oh, wow. You and I left that feeling two completely different ways. I loved every aspect about that story and how it was written.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com