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Comment by reedjosh | Hacker News Reader

Because authoritarianism is antithetical to our founding nature.

A centralized database that is used to control individuals is akin to China's social credit system. I've actually started seeing people argue for China style systems, and I find it both frightening and sickening.

When I start to push back at all, I usually get arguments like `Leave the US if you don't like it.`, and sure I'll just pick up and leave the country I was born in, but beyond that where will I be able to go?

If I just want my own individual rights, where in the world will I be able to go if what is basically the last bastion of freedom and individualism is lost to tyrannical majority rule?

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Could you apply this same argument to taxes/SSNs, drivers licenses[+], and other existing centralized systems in the US?

+: Let's be honest, driver's licenses are practically required and you attract extra scrutiny if you don't have one.

> Could you apply this same argument to taxes/SSNs, drivers licenses[+], and other existing centralized systems in the US?

Sure, but at least driver's licenses are about public spaces. I can drive on private property all I want without a license.

As for the other systems, I personally don't much believe those are okay either, but that's a much deeper argument than this.

We've been losing our rights since the income tax and probably prior. I just want us to stop losing them at a minimum, but asking for that is viewed as some kind of major indiscretion.

None of these violate your bodily autonomy.

can i sue you if i catch covid from you for violating my autonomy? only half joking.

You can try, but to succeed you would essentially have to prove that it came from me and that I all but intentionally infected you. Negligence would require that my actions are not the actions of a prudent person. With 50% of the population not being vaccinated it may be hard to prove what a prudent person would do.

I'm vaccinated and would encourage others to get vaccinated but I am very much against forcing it on anyone.

i imagine perspective of being sued for spreading it would be a good motivation to get vaccinated.

Nor does a vaccine passport? It only prevents you from lying about a major public health threat.

it really doesn't do that, its intent is to prevent freedom of travel to the unvaccinated. Most people I know that are not vaccinated are very open about it and they can be; as there are currently very few if any prohibition on where they can go. The purpose of the vaccine passport is to end that freedom.

How is our credit score system much different than a centralized database used to control individuals?

It's a privately ran optional system. I do realize that society generally makes it non-optional, but then that gets into arguments about running a debt based monetary regime.

Allegation of your excessive alcohol consumption or unpopular opinions is not going to decrease your credit score. Your donation to the government "charity" is not going to increase your credit score. With low credit score, you can still take a train to anywhere you want.

> you can still take a train to anywhere you want.

Generally agree, but have fun finding a place to live though, it seems around me even small landlords seem to want credit checks.

Every American is in a whole myriad of government databases form the federal level on down. Pretending otherwise, or pretending that the next database will be the one to break individualism and lead to autocracy, is just magical thinking.

I don't at all disagree, but this will be the first one openly limiting freedoms via the government's monopoly of force.

I do believe there are others already doing so too, but none of them are open and acknowledged by the public.

That's not true at all, several of our lists already limit constitutionally approved freedoms.

The No Fly List and felony registration for gun ownership being 2 examples.

edit: before the downvotes start, agreement with those lists does not negate that they are restricting freedoms based on activities that added or removed someone from a list

> That's not true at all

You got me there.

I believe the No Fly list is a tragedy of Kafkaesque bureaucracy that I wish didn't exist. People have found themselves on it with little recourse.

I haven't researched the felony registration list enough to speak to it intelligently.

>Every American is in a whole myriad of government databases form the federal level on down...

The park might be full of needles but that's no justification for further litter.

Why do we need yet another database? People have enough problems with the no fly list and that's a short list. A DB that has 1/3 of the country flagged would cause mayhem from false positives and inconsistent data.

I'm not supporting any new database, just pointing out that if our goal is to prevent centralized government databases of Americans, that ship has already sailed... around the world several times over.

I think this kind of attitude is exactly what OP had in mind. There are tons of central databases you are already registered in, all available on demand. They detail your life in more detail than you know about yourself at this point (certainly when all data are combined).

To be not aware of this on place like HackerNews is... not very believable, we discuss this all the time, every day.

"last bastion of freedom" - there are places like Switzerland which have more of freedom than any place in US. There is no power nor amount of the money in the world that would force me to move from here to police state like US where everybody talks about freedom but only top 0.1% enjoys some of it.

This might be hard to grasp, but it should be generally true also in US - your freedom ends where other's begins (ie transportation, coming to any work/office). With Covid, this is valid 1000x more. Freedom and anarchy are not the same as some hardliners would like to believe.

I like your comment, and I agree the Swiss are probably free-er at this point--but we were something of a free nation at one time, and we still (Orwellian?) bill ourselves as such.

> There are tons of central databases you are already registered in, all available on demand.

Most of these are not ran by the government though. Thus their use is not mandated.

> your freedom ends where other's begins

In libertarian circles this is generally spoken about as the `non-aggression principle`.

I in no way think that a proof of vaccination system put together by private providers, coupled with businesses' choice to check vaccination status is wrong. I do think the responsible thing to do is somewhere along the lines of self isolating to either being vaccinated or having an antibody test.

My objection is a government orchestrated vaccination database with mandated use in private businesses.

edit: I don't know why you're being downvoted, but I did upvote you for the thoughtful commentary. : )

Well, you're halfway there. Each state already runs an immunization information system which holds this data.

In Arizona, it's required that all immunizations given to <=18s are reported (along with "encouragement" for providers to report adult immunizations) and this is the basis for determining if the child may attend a public school, for example.

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