Two days before condo collapse, a pool contractor photographed damage in garage
miamiherald.com
miamiherald.com
The contractor clearly thought it was "a lot of work" but not to the level of "this building needs to be condemned immediately".
So many articles are screaming "look at that paint chipping and concrete exposure, obviously the building was going to go collapse"
I don't think it's so obvious or am I just naive?
Semi related, I live in a very badly maintained major city, where driving under many bridges we can see cracking, big chunks of concrete that fell away, exposed re bar, etc. To me it looks very scary, but I have no real reference point. If a bridge collapses, the news will be able to interview someone who says what I said above about the appearance, but the only thing that really matters is an engineer's report.
I believe in the US governance space there was a proposal for a 10-40y roads and bridges reconstruction effort. I have no idea if it survived factional politics.
In West Seattle, they shut down the bridge from cracks, but it did take them a while.
>>Those taut tendons serve to push the concrete together like giant rubber bands. They help the concrete resist the gravity and other forces that could crack or otherwise pull it apart.
>>“In most cases [of] cracked concrete, you're not too bothered about the concrete not operating properly,” Stanton said. “You are worried about the steel inside becoming corroded.”
https://www.kuow.org/stories/city-has-known-about-cracks-in-...
If this guy honestly felt that the building was at risk of imminent failure - which is what the media generally has been implying, it was not sufficiently communicated in the language used in the report, which fails to convey any sense of urgency. There is a whole bunch of pro-forma jargon, and pro-speak however, which seems to mask whatever its trying to say, and drains away the urgency from this.
So - yes, things hold up until they suddenly fall over.
It had more money budgeted for landscaping than actual replacement of anything structural (which was just 2500sqft of garage decking). Even that would probably better be described as waterproofing.
There was a lot of waterproofing, electrical, and HVAC work, as should be expected on a building that old.
But there was nothing in that proposal that would have done anything at all to prevent this.
The best case would have maybe been to uncover the real problems earlier, but most of the structural and waterproofing work was near the pool, which we know survived. So probably not.
Whoever arguably had an unfulfilled duty. I’d say the condo association and its individual officers (who would have received the damage reports and arguably failed in their duty of care to owners and indirectly renters with regard to them) would be a good candidate. For renters or their families, their individual landlords would also be potential targets.
Indemnity tends to have limited scope, and whether a particular claim is within it is a question resolved in a lawsuit.
> They are just homeowners like everyone else
No, they aren't, because they are differently situated.
> unlikely to have any expertise in engineering or understanding engineering reports.
Special expertise is not required for culpabale negligence or culpable non-, mis-, or malfeasance. Whether, for instance, the reports they received provided sufficient notice of danger that they should, under the duty of carr applicable, have acted differently and their failure to so contributed to the harms to persons and property in the collapse is...precisely the kind of question resolved in a lawsuit.
> And possibly also now dead.
Death does not erase legal liabilities, generally. Its true that, after published notice of death, there is usually a limited time to file claims against the estate (which, with a live defendant, might have more time under applicable statutes of limitations, etc.) But that just adds urgency to identifying and acting on potential claims here, where, yes, some of the potential defendants might also have died in the event.
Obviously great that they caught it and have a rapid response, but pretty crazy.
> The equipment room runs along the southern wall of the building — an area that did not collapse.
The internet commentary isn’t very helpful. We need to wait for official reports, but the media will try to extrapolate from any tiny pieces of information in the mean time
There should have been 'oh shit' levels of cracking and rebar exposed, and in specific places. That's not what the infamous "inspection" showed.
And even then, it should have tolerated multiple complete local failures before cascading catastrophic failure.
ETA: It's hard to see in these photos bc of the the quality, but the rebar in the pool pump room is more concerning than anything in the 2018 report, but still doesn't look anywhere close to failure.
(Actual structural inspections should be able to clearly show cracks 1/16th" or smaller, at a resolution you can measure them from the picture)
Edit 2:
The equipment room in that picture didn't even collapse.
https://imgur.com/gallery/ZSMg1pZ
They cleaned up the chunks of concrete that had fallen from the beam.
[0]: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5194293,-70.9935589,3a,75y,3...
[1]: https://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?url=https%3A%...
[2]: https://hwy.massdot.state.ma.us/ProjectInfo/Main.asp?ACTION=...
I can only think it is essentially impossible to get 20+ tenants to agree on something that involves them spending money, time, inconvenience, ...
> We have covered so much ground already to get the project rolling, it’s not surprising everyone is still asking about those items. Everything reviewed in this letter has been publicly presented, discussed, and voted on as necessary. We have discussed, debated, and argued for years now, and will continue to do so for years to come as different items come into play.
Sounds like you're not far off with your assumption. From the author's tone, it feels like he's annoyed.
That said, if the building had a pattern of these it’s probably not very well maintained.
But it's highly dependant on size and location.
A- major proportion of civil/structy engineers are going into retirement, their numbers not supplanted by new blood. It's just not a calling anymore.
B- USACE redacts their dam and bridge inspection databases by zeroing out inspection dates. They're obviously managing the external perception of this process, and internally prioritizing best they can.
C- they only have ~32k employees, of which there are only so many pertinent engineers, handling 200k bridges and 90k dams. Overwhelmed is an understatement. Then there's the budget situation.
D- then there's the buildings.
High paying jobs are always in fashion and the demand for those jobs should increase because the public doesn't like seeing children dead in rubble.
Here is what I think I know:
When rebar corrodes it expands and that means even more air, water and salt can reach even further into the construction, meaning even more rebar is exposed and starts corroding. Edit: this probably weakens the concrete as well both because of exposure to the atmosphere and because of the cracking action but this last one is just an educated guess from my side.
How we worked was our foreman went first with an ultrasound device to detect the rebar and how much cover it had. He'd then sample the concrete by cutting into it, knocking out one side of the cut using a hammer and spray indicator fluid (I guess fenolftalein) on it. If the concrete turned pink it was healthy. You could measure how far out it was healthy.
If the measurements rebar was out in the damaged concrete we would expose it and apply protection before closing the wound. Sometimes we would also use a sledgehammer to adjust the rebar somewhat.
A number of factors influence how long concrete lasts before it needs maintenance:
- How far rebar is buried.
- The quality of the concrete as it leaves the mixer
- If the driver had lunch break or got stuck in traffic after loading the truck and added water to prevent anyone from noticing. Concrete starts curing immediately after mixing so you have limited time before it needs to be in the mould
- How well the concrete was vibrated to make sure it filled all gaps and that no significant air pockets was left
- How close you are to the sea
There's always someone on HN who knows something about everything and hopefully this was one of my turns to satisfy some of the curiosity for someone :-D
Edit: working with those older guys was really interesting. Seing a 70-year old bloke throw around tower lift parts that I figured I didn't have a chance of lifting. All the stories. The time I played with a bunch of cards and one of them askes to borrow it and started showing off crazy tricks; turned out he had a bronze medal from Nordic magic for juniors (and since he was now close to retirement and his hands were large and swollen I also got a chance to see what was really happening :-)
It was also the first place I know that actually practiced HSE. Others laughed but this team had 1-2% extra profit margin and I remember we got a nice bonus too. Ended up at around $15/hr which was close to twice what I used to get for much harder and dirtier work.
This was the spring of 2001. They liked me so when I left for school I got a nice job cleaning the work sites.
I think maybe humans as a species aren’t so great at processing freak accidents. For some reason it’s easier to accept when we have someone to blame - real or imagined.
The media has definitely been exaggerating the evidence that management had, but it's still clear that they needed to be more aggressive in inspection and restoration.
My grandparents used to own a condo where the people there were unwilling to spend money on anything. What would have been a couple hundred dollar special assessment morphed into a several thousand one very quickly multiple times, as nobody was willing to spend the money fixing things.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/miami-area-building-collapse-co...
> The president of the Champlain South Towers condo association told residents in April their building was in desperate disrepair and urged them to pay the $15 million in assessments needed to fix structural problems, in a letter reviewed by The Wall Street Journal.
> ...
> The purpose of the letter, dated April 9, 2021, was to explain to residents the worthiness of the construction projects for the 40-year-old building ahead of the following week’s meeting about a proposed special assessment of $15 million to be paid by residents.
Unfortunately, this isn't the "everything's rosy" universe.
---
That money... its about $120k/unit in the condo.
You can get a condo on Miami Beach for $225k. Some digging on Zillow suggests that a condo built within the last 20 years will get you into the $450k range without difficulty and very easy to go beyond that.
There are other things coming to light too... like they added a penthouse ( https://www.wsj.com/articles/miami-area-condo-that-collapsed... )
> The tower’s rooftop apartments would have added significant weight but they were accounted for in the revised design, said Roberto Leon, a professor of construction engineering at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, who reviewed the building plans.
> The structural plans show that the size of the columns and reinforcements would have been typical for that time, and the roof would have had limited ability to redistribute the building’s load if one of the columns were to fail, he said.
> That could mean a failure in one column could bring down an entire structure, which could have been what occurred with this building, Mr. Leon said.
This is not an example of a random collapse. It is an example of what happens when you do absolutely everything wrong.
Should have spent the money on actual improvements not cosmetic pool updates.
Changing a building's facade, cleaning up the entry area and gardens, but totally neglecting cooling systems and water systems (as examples of systems needing maintenance but with usually less-than-fatal consequences when neglected). It's very frustrating, and common to most (if not all) industries.
> The contractor visited the condo building last week to put together a bid for a cosmetic restoration of the pool as well as to price out new pool equipment — a small piece of the multimillion-dollar restoration project that just was getting underway at the 40-year-old building.
When lots of people have to agree on something, it's easier to batch everything up into one vote. It's the same reason we get giant spending bills in Congress instead of more focused ones.
Still, I think it is an illuminating case study. Given how big the death toll is, I'm very open to the idea that building inspections need more transparency or more technology.
So no you shouldn't interpret that as "about to fail".
It happens in buildings, it happens with electrical fire safety, it happens in healthcare (insurance and doctors largely don't believe in prevention in my experience).
I’ve always wondered how many other buildings are in the same state.
What do you mean by "stability test holes kept failing inspection"? If you're referring to geotechnical boreholes, there's nothing to inspect - it's a test of (among other things) soil strength. It's certainly possible to have soft/loose/low-strength soils (soft/loose solis frequently cause the borehole to collapse on itself, that's not unusual) but that doesn't speak toward safety. The building just has to be designed & constructed to account for that, usually by stiffening the soil and/or using a pile foundation.
I’ve always wondered how many other buildings are in the same state.
Given the loose soils and relatively high-water table in Seattle? Pretty much all of them. Structures can be built on soft ground, it just needs to be done right.
Also, no, not referring to buildings on normal engineering. I’m talking about buildings built with corners being cut. This was also not in Seattle and wasn’t low lying, was on a hill.
But your friend's story doesn't make a lot of sense. The foundation would have been engineered for the soil that was there, not designed, then tested to see if the soil matched. Even cutting corners, it doesn't make sense to do the steps out of order. So I imagine there's more to the story.
Sometimes what is on site is not always what was in the report. And sometimes land nearby becomes unstable and retesting is required.
Also codes change on projects that take years. The current data center they are building gets changed to the prints almost daily.
of course you need piles deep enough, and boreholes soil test results probably factor into the decision of how deep it should be. The $100M fix for the tilting and sinking 58-story SF tower built in 2009 with "floating" piles not reaching the bedrock :
https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/SF-s-sinkin...
"The solution, likened to putting a bumper jack next to a flat tire, will involve the installation of 52 piles along the north and west sides of the tower. The piles will be beneath the sidewalk, 250 feet into the bedrock of downtown San Francisco, and be tied with the original 60-90-feet-deep foundation piles."
Soil stability and it's ability to support a building depends a lot on water situation.
reminded - back at University i worked summers on construction mostly doing foundations in Siberia in permafrost zone. The most memorable part of the quick introduction to the profession there was when they showed us several buildings which didn't have piles deep enough - most of those you could easily spot from a distance by the building shape defects like tilting, bended roofline, etc... because if piles aren't deep enough the foundation pretty much becomes really "floating" during warm season after several cycles of freezing/thawing.
Related, at a bigger scale, global warming affecting foundations in the permafrost zone https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/oct/14/thawing-perma...
One other situation I can imagine is that the risk is outside his domain. Example: I saw a company scrape flat clays out of a roadway and use that material as fill for slab-on-grade foundations of duplexes. I wouldn’t expect those to last long, but the developer is also the owner, so he’s only hurt himself. I don’t find the owner to be particularly sympathetic, I only certified the road construction, and the only person to report the poor practice to is the owner himself, who also hired the crew.
The SEC also has a whistleblower program that another commenter has linked and, as of recently, they have really been paying out a lot of money to whistleblowers. Larger sums and more frequent payouts than we’ve ever seen before.
But, if you’re looking for the business niche, I’d guess they’d be your customers. Basically a “bug bounty” program for underwriters of tenancy in common real estate.
POAs are a terrible idea and I wish they didn’t exist. Distributed ownership always seems to incentivize bad behavior.
I guarantee you one thing - no matter the ultimate observable precursors, I bet there are thousands of buildings across the states that have the same precursors and nothing will be done.
Fundamentally maintenance is just not prioritized. This is true both in software and in general. If you want to scare yourself just Google elevator death. Elevators are a perfect example of the issue in that there are regular inspections but inspections do not imply maintenance.
I am not even sure how exactly you foster a culture of maintenance at this point.
I do have a new fear of drowning in an elevator, though: https://www.israelhayom.com/2020/01/05/young-couple-drowns-i...
I suspect that some of the delay was due to the amount of work it took to get the huge special assessment lined up. It's likely that some of the residents who were killed had been fighting the condo association to avoid paying so much.
Here's a long letter that the condo board recently wrote to the unit owners about the concrete repair work.
https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/miamiletter0628...
>that estimate indicated that the concrete damage observed would begin to multiply exponentially over the years, and indeed the observable damage such as in the garagehas gotten significantly worse since the initial inspection.When you can visually see the concrete spalling (cracking), that means that the rebar holding it together is rusting and deteriorating beneath the surface.Please note that the original scope ofwork inthe 2018 report has expanded. The concrete deterioration is accelerating. The roof situation got much worse, so extensive roof repairs had to be incorporated.
>Because so muchof the needed concrete/waterproofingwork is underground, we must pull up almost the entire ground level of the lot to access the areas that requirerepair. That means we have to put itall backat the end. This includes the pool deck, the entire entrydriveand ground level parking,north side contractor parking,and planters/landscaping. Electrical work and plumbingare involved almost everywhere. Balcony concreterequires repair/waterproofing,and the railingsrequire repair. And-we have to bring all this up to current codewhen repairs are completed.
How long should a pump motor last? Anyone know?
They luckily don't have large organic deposits (that I'm aware of), so total subsidence will be much less than New Orleans, but same concept.
Back to your question, the pumps were probably designed or spec'd for a capacity that they are having to exceed in increasing amounts.
Pumping drainage and the ground water table is probably drawing salt water, but at shallow depths. Not deep enough for actual water wells.
Our sump here runs all the time when it rains, but then it goes for weeks without moving any water (especially in the winter). When we moved into this house, the pump was broken, but there was also water damage in the basement. First thing i did was replace it and now its a common sound to hear the pump running.
quality, conditions, actual duty cycle vs designed, etc.
Obviously it depends a lot on the specific type of pump, motors are - generally speaking - very long lasting, I would say (proper type of pump, properly dimensioned, used according to specs, and maintained/repaired) anything between 10 and 20 years.
The more common issues are outbound leaks (from the axle gasket) in external pumps and inbound leaks (from the outer case or gaskets) in submersible pumps, and of course from time to time you need to change the bearings.
In the case of submersible pumps, leaks usually mean also a motor failure (again it depends on the type of pumps) expecially on rarely used pumps as bearings will clog and the motor will then likely need too power, and overheat.
On the other hand, external pumps (air cooled) often overheat because of the poorer cooling, if subjected to lots of "start and stop", electrical motors, particularly if large, tend to create a huge drain of power (often 3x to 5x) when starting (as compared to normally running) and this inrush of current translates in a huge amount of heat (and more generally stress to the motor), so many starts in a limited time are not good for the life of the motor, lately things were mitigated by electronic starters that allow for smoother (less peak Amps) starting.
The electrical setup/controls may also play a role, a good, well calculated pumping station (such as those used to evacuate leaks in an underground construction) is generally 100% redundant (i.e. two pumps when only one is needed, in some cases 300%), and have automations that alternate the use of pumps (so that each motor and bearings actually run when pumping is required) and use "the other pump" if there are too many motor starts in a given hour, plus there can be a sort of valve that allows to pump the water within the reservoir, so that even if there is no need to pump water "out" pumps are "exercized" periodically, this latter is also often used to avoid too many starts, once a pump is started, it runs for a given number of minutes minimum, part of which is actually used to pump water outside - i.e. responding to the event that triggered the start - and the rest it runs "idle" pumping water within the reservoir through the by-pass valve, so that if a new event re-triggers the start, the pump is already running and only the valve is closed to make it pump water out.
But otherwise what you routinely (I would say every two-three years for external pumps and maybe 5 years for submersible ones) do is check gaskets and bearings and replace them if needed.
I'm curious if it was a saltwater pool.
https://www.pentair.com/en-us/products/residential/pool-spa-...
https://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/28th3w/picture252421...
Notice the feed line marked 'chlorine' on the wall, and it doesn't look like there's any salt chlorine generators in-line with the plumbing.
1. Almost anyone seeing all the warning signs probably didn’t think an entire building could collapse or partially collapse. Things could look terrible, but maybe not enough to say, “I need to get out of here before this building collapses.” Yes, that is said in old building and homes but it just doesn’t compute in building this size. That is why a professional inspector needed to be involved.
2. Time was also a problem here. In the US, a modern city with a 40 year old building just doesn’t compute. It’s actually kind of old in the US, especially with problems like this. Similar to #1, it didn’t compute a building this size could collapse this way. That is why a professional inspector needed to be involved.
>also, when performing any concrete restoration work, it is impossible to know the extent of the damage to the underlying rebar until the concrete is opened up. Oftentimes the damage is more extensive than can be determined by inspection of the surface.
from the HOA letter: https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/miamiletter0628...