Men are rapidly losing their close friends, poll finds
theweek.com
theweek.com
Conversely, once you get past this my other advice would be "many to one" - hang out in groups frequently to massage things, and try to hang out with people by themselves as frequently as possible. as great as group hang outs are - it's just not the same as one-on-one. for one you're not as candid about things.
finally my last note would be: just because you see someone alot in a group does not mean you are friends. I cannot emphasize this enough. you must hang out with people in smaller groups, ideally one-on-one (this is not to say that people you hang out with in groups aren't your friends, tho).
How did I do it? I made every single faux pas in front of people. Made constant mistakes and errors to learn how to properly socialize myself. Guess what? It worked. It just took consistent effort and a resolve to get over the fact that I wouldn't always be an awkward person to every new person I met.
Our urban sprawl/car dependence is probably mostly responsible for the decline in friendships.
Maybe. I think this has its own set of problems, but I struggle to see a link between car dependence and friendships. I think social media and online games have contributed more to the decline of interpersonal relationships than car culture has.
I had some 'friends' who I knew for 10+ years who couldn't spare a single minute over the past 1.5 years to go for a walk or have a coffee outside. As someone who was there for them at various points in life, all I could think of was "really, you know I live alone and don't have an SO like you do, did it seriously never cross your mind how lonely it's been for me?" Unless I made the umpteenth trip to visit him/her, they would make zero effort.
I also had friends including those who just had newborns who made the time every single week to jump on a zoom call just to say hi and to keep each others spirits up.
I probably won't let it destroy the friendships because what is 1.5 years compared to 10+, but at the same time, I'd be lying if I said it was easy to forget.
You were expecting people to meet you during a pandemic? Or am I misunderstanding?
I have friends who work at the CDC that I saw regularly during the pandemic (outdoors, distanced, and masked when necessary).
In person interactions are okay too. I hung out with lots of friends who frequently tested and limited their encounters to those who took the same precautions and none of us caught Corona.
I doubt more than a handful actually thought that
Partially because having been dropped by a few "friends" in my childhood though.
- had you at a disadvantage but never exploited it
- someone who helps you move a couch and a desk
- lend a book to and always get it back
- lend a small amount of money to and always get it back
- leave something at their place and they tell you about it
- can count on them for a couch if you get locked-out
The closest of friends:
- you would kill for them and vice-versa
- you trust them implicitly with everything: secrets, material, and family
- you could be mistaken for family and/or your families blend together to where no one can really tell who-is-with-who
Traditionally these bonds came about through other things like neighbors, communities and religion, but people are constantly moving for work, and society is more pluralistic (and secular) than ever so most don't begin to lay roots until they have a spouse in these roots aren't being laid, and there hasn't really been anything new that fills that gap outside of where you work.
What Covid showed me was that nearly all of my friends were people I had friendly working relationships with. A ton of my friends were from church where we served in different capacities together and enjoyed working together. And I had a lot of similar relationships at work. But with stay at home covid, I found that I didn't yearn to see these people still. I'm glad when we do stuff together, we enjoy doing so. But I don't miss them. And I found there was a small handful of people that were worth making the effort to actually go on socially distanced walks or whatever to still just hang out.
I am never going back to that super busy over programmed life style where my friends are just the people it's best to get along with friends-like because you're together a lot.
This sounds like a sunk-cost fallacy to me. You've already pointed out that friendship length isn't correlated with friendship quality.
Many people this past year were terrified and traumatized.
We talk if "normal stuff" (including the Pandemic) for 10-15 minutes top at the start, especially while waiting for everybody to get online, then we play for two hours straight. Voice only, no video. It's a Fantasy campaign so it's pure escapism. It sorta worked so far.
Some others would be out gallivanting every day (per their socials) and yet couldn't find a half an hour to hang out. I gave up on those. No loss.
In 2020, the US was dealing with the stress of a pandemic and also the most anxiety-inducing election season in modern history.
Some people dealt with it by totally shutting down or narrowing their circles. It wasn't personal.
That's what happened to me, anyways
I suspect it actually has to do with later marriages and declining fertility. As someone who doesn't really seek friendship, everyone I know socially is either through work or parents of my kids' friends.
Is there a source for this claim? (not being acerbic - genuine question)
My social circle grew a lot bigger when I first moved out, tho I lost touch with many high school “friends”. I moved places again in my early 20s and then it kept shrinking - more adult responsibilities, less friends.
I recently moved countries and my circle now consists of a handful of people I’ve been friends with 10-15+ Years, funnily most of these I’ve met online. We’re all part of the same group mostly, everyone with their responsibilities; wives, jobs, etc.
I’d say that’s pretty normal and expected
Anecdote, I'm 40, and I notice my younger male friends actually seem to have closer male friendships than I and my same age peers would have had, specifically more open about feelings, affection, basically things you'd be less likely to find and older generation man expressing. I wonder if it's like so many other disparities we see, where there are more very close friendships, more loners, and fewer people in the middle ground.
https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/the-state-of-a...
I often think I should move to a city where some of my close school friends live. We are all techies and should really all work together but haven’t done so yet.
I currently live in my wife’s hometown and there are a lot of folks who were born and raised here so the social fabric is strong. That being said I haven’t made any friends here. Oddly my wife made all new friends and while still has childhood friends here doesn’t really see them.
That being said I’ve made friends at various jobs and I correlate a happy job and workplace success with the ability to make a friend at work.
We will probably see things change post pandemic though.
When I moved and left for college I was married already and most of my friends were not. My wife and I weren’t big into the clubbing thing so old friends sort of fell away. We did both make some friends in college, some mutual and some exclusive. But there were social factors that made that difficult - mainly we were very, very poor and were often embarrassed to have people over or go out since we couldn’t afford to. A small handful of those friendships live on in my wife’s social media but I have no social media footprint.
After college we both worked and that’s where I picked up the friends I have today. Two (now former) coworkers and a former boss. We have an ongoing text chat and we’re pretty open about real stuff. As luck would have it, both my former boss and I moved to the same state for new jobs and live fairly close. So the four of us (we and our wives) hang out on occasion.
At my current job I’ve picked up one more friend with whom I talk regularly about non work things. But I’m unsure how long that friendship will last as we’re both seeking new jobs, she’s leaving in a week and I’ll (hopefully) be leaving shortly thereafter. Hopefully it’ll last, but who knows.
My wife is better at making friends than I am. She’s joined several local groups around her interests and is slowly building a new social circle. But for me I tend to work from maybe 4am to 7pm and often during the weekend. So by the time I shut everything off at night I’m just so exhausted that I don’t have much more energy to do anything.
This is overwhelmingly true about everyone, having a single digit count of close friends. People that pretend to have dozens of close friends, are liars, whether consciously or subconsciously (specifically they're maintaining a facade to draw social points from, narcissistically). It's not feasible to successfully maintain so many high level relationships, even if it's all a person does all day.
A typical social butterfly might have a few dozen active social connections that they keep alive by occasionally touching base, which is very different from having that many good friends.
15 hours days and more on the weekend sounds incredibly unhealthy. How do you eat, sleep, and socialize?
The biggest reason I work so much is that the team I’m on is very small and I’m the “sr architect” which sounds considerably fancier than it is. In reality I’m the architect and the engineer and the prod support agent and the integration and business architect. Because my team is not considered essential we do not have budget to hire more FTEs but because our “internal clients” ARE considered essential we are basically at their mercy. And I see other teams in the company get descoped every month. So I’ve been trying to keep the workload handled so that my team doesn’t all get fired. But I can’t do it anymore which is why I’m trying to leave. Had 6 rounds of interviews with our biggest competitor over the past two weeks and I think they all went well. So hopefully in a couple of days I’ll be able to slap down my two weeks, burn my never used PTO, and hope for better days in a new org.
Worse for males because women are more social-oriented.
Besides... "most tribes" bury their people in their late 40s on average. The belief that they have it all figured out is called the naturalistic fallacy.
Massai (men eat separately from women)
Victorians (yeah. White people.)
Trobianders (you know, because I'm supposed to be a credentialed anthropologist)
Amish (they still exist!)
Roma (DW has a nice documentary)
Then I googled for a list of Amazon tribes, took the first name I found ("Aweti"), and looked them up in Wikipedia. Immediately, "Culture" section:
> A men's hut is also located in the center of the village, and is used for holding ritual flutes which are not allowed to be seen by women.
What are the odds?
Look: You know how I know this? Because all these tribes are composed of people no different from you and me. This is just how people are.
For the first two: the US divorce rate was at its near peak around the time that the linked article's poll shows that male friendships were at their high mark[1]. The average US family size has also not changed significantly since 1990[2].
Put another way: there were more "broken" families in 1990, at a time when the poll says that more men had closer friendships, and the average family size hasn't swung in any direction that would suggest any relationship.
[1]: https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-us-divorce-rate-has-hit-a-50-...
[2]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/183657/average-size-of-a...
The ones responding to the polls then were divorced men who had been raised in stabler 1960's families.
Maybe being divorced isn't the problem, being raised by broken families is.
It's possible that some of those factors matter (I'd think smaller families would increase availability for socialization) but, to provide anecdote, my circle of friends expanded after my breakup, which makes sense.
In my (limited) experience many stereotypes are accurate.
> I'd think smaller families would increase availability for socialization
It really depends, but I don't know. Large families are correlated with certain activities, beliefs, etc which might be what help increase social interaction. I know a lot of parents who have big families and their kids basically introduce them to half a dozen families who they're friends with and it exponentially increases opportunity for socializing as the children age and dynamics change.
This is also well proven -
https://www.spsp.org/news-center/blog/stereotype-accuracy-re...
This surprises me. Usually breakups cost friends, as some are associated more with the partner you're leaving.
> I'd think smaller families would increase availability for socialization
I dunno, there can be a lot of socialization within the extended family. It has a lot to do with culture though. In some there'll be a WhatsApp group full of cousins and aunties, plus three generations actually living together in a big compound, and all the socialization you could need (and then some). And if you travel you'll never need a hotel. Lots of cultures like this.
How do any of those 3 things relate to one another? This is such a bizarre non-sequitur that I can only assume you're trolling.
It's a simple concept conservatives like conservative things like valuing long strong friendships. They in theory, value and do well a small number of things.
And it's a simple concept liberals like many flashy new things, they value the new and different.
It's a fair idea to do friendships well you move to a conservative place. To get lots of friends who come and go, you would go liberal.
Why is this trolling? Its a reasonable thesis. I don't think it's perfect, but it's interesting.
Heh, I’ve got some interesting comments about this before. I was once told by someone that they were surprised I listened to rap because I’m from the south and this wouldn’t like the race of the artists.
I figured I should then at least have the candor to sign post what I perceived to be the original poster's intent since you and others seemed to have trouble with it. Given your hostile response to that response (naturally after having been attacked) I won't continue to try.
In all honesty, if you're that insulated from the current zeitgeist, consider yourself fortunate.
How is what I asked hostile? They commenter made a statement about small towns and politics equating friendship. I've lived in those areas and I still have no idea what they mean. You have very strong opinions in this area and keep on lobbing partial ideas out there (just like this) as if everyone should understand how you feel without explicitly stating why.
>In all honesty, if you're that insulated from the current zeitgeist, consider yourself fortunate.
You seem to be consuming more media than you are interacting with the folks they're stirring up propaganda about to get views. As I've previously mentioned I have hobbies that are stereotypically aligned with certain demographics, and from the countless hours I've spent at gun ranges, muscle car shows and shops, tech conventions and art fairs, 99% of people's beliefs are not at the extremes of the political spectrum. The vocal minority usually creates the divisive attention you seem to be speaking of. I saw your other comment in this thread about ditching your friends because they were "more trouble than it's worth". I'm not surprised you believe everyone is at each other's throats based on that comment. Most people are very reasonable.
If you haven't seen compassionate and reasonable friends and family turn into paranoid, irrational, hate-filled conformists as they become Extremely Online, then in all sincerity, consider yourself fortunate.
There are certainly some people who might claim that the label of "real friend" only applies to those you could "trust to help bury a body", or some other extremely unlikely/intense situation. Like most things, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. There are likely varying degrees of friendship. Qualifying them as "real" (or not) comes across more like the informal logical fallacy of an appeal to purity (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) than anything.
As the saying goes when the chips are down, you will know who your true friends are.
How? Joined a fraternal organization. It's the least fashionable or cool thing to do, and that's precisely what made it a good idea. It is a way to have something in common without a lot of baggage or overhead, and you get to see what other men are really like from every walk of life, at different stages of their lives. The organizations are what you make them, and bringing conditions and expectation goes as well as you expect.
I say men because a lot of young guys these days are uncomfortable saying out loud that they are a man. Instead they say they are a "person," "an adult," a "guy," or a "dude." Nobody needs a deep philosophical explanation of it, but being able to self accept enough to say you are a man is exceptional these days. You can certainly be all those things, but if someone asked you point blank whether you were a good man, for many it's an uncomfortably direct question. I think this is the root of what makes male friendships hard, we've all become too neurotic and anxious.
The org I joined doesn't have any answers to that (it's not unlike a theatre group), but just being around other guys and doing the work to keep the thing running gives you the tools to figure it out for yourself if that's your thing. I also think we've been given a bunch of substitute cognitively limiting tools to dodge the question, like saying we aren't bros or toxic masculine persons, or don't need to overcompensate because we're educated, etc. I think because many of us haven't been equipped with the tools to discern what it means to be a good one makes the whole thing intimidating.
Anyway, in mine, I hang out with a wildly diverse group (whole spectrum of religion, sexuality, ethnicity, age, etc), and in having almost nothing in common, the equillibrium we manage to find gives you an idea of a common thread that we can find. It helps everyone recognize there is a way to meet almost anyone on the level. It's not for everyone, and that bar makes the other side of it really special. Partners are fine with it because it's good clean fun and knowing 20+ guys who will return your txts is pretty cool.
I think the thing that turned me is I saw the quality of the criticisms on the internet of fraternal organizations and the list of who has historically been against them, and I figured if there was a team I could join, it would be the one those anti- people are against. The rules are that the organization can't recruit, so if you want to be the change, the opportunity is unlimited.
I'm having the same issue as I'm in a similar age bracket and it's getting harder to make new connections. I've attended Rotary and Lion's club meetings as a guest (they're both community-service organizations) but haven't clicked with the crowd, some chapters seem to imply a prestigious career grants greater chance of membership which is not what I'm looking for.
Looking to hear comments on Masonry or other similar organizations.
As a happily married gay man, however, I find that a lot of straight men still get the wrong idea when I, e.g., invite them for a drink after work, even when it's as part of a group with other people. It's happened a few times now and I'm seriously perturbed! What other signals do I need to be throwing to tell people I just want to be friends?
Perhaps your friends stopped getting in contact with you after they realized that you’re an asshole.
- Be a friend to have friends.
- Be the source of the party, activities, and adventures. Do not wait around for anyone else to ask first, or it's waiting for Godot.
- Make everything an ADVENTURE! Going to get milk: ADVENTURE TIME! B) :D Ridiculousness on 11 with a broken knob.
- Bring more than there was before: stuff, energy, liveliness, etc.
- Be early or late.
- Always leave while everyone is still having a good time.
- Say "no" with frustration and schedule something concrete immediately.
- Exponentially-backoff after 2-3 texts / 1-2 calls.
- All of the "Let's do lunch people" who aren't interested in concrete plans are just being "nice" dicks, wasting your time and theirs.
- If people just want your number without anything else, they're trying to exit (and ghost you).
- Thank people with specific, personalized notes (cards or emails) after invites. Cards, where possible.
- Ask for people's birthdays and anniversaries.
- When you create contacts of people, demonstrate getting details like birth day and month and anniversary. It shows you don't just view people as ephemeral leads to the next networking event.
- Give people time to miss you but not time for forget you.
- You're only as good as your last impression.
- Lookout for the needs of others, listen, and don't be a greedy or selfish dick.
- Not as a moral judgement but have integrity: reliable, fair, keeps confidence, and trustworthy. If a particular cleaning or cleanup task should be absolutely necessary, there is no doubt about its conclusion.
- Dissuade a friend's worst proclivities while helping them see new abilities and capacities.
- Sense of humor: find it, grab it with both hands, and squeeze. Sorry, ma'am, I was making a point here with my 259 new internet friends who are such bastards who never invite me anywhere. Don't mind me, I'm just a terrible, weird, ugly, boring, desperate person dragging this cross along... don't even think of helping now that you didn't invite me. How dare you!? Good day to you, I say. I said "good day!" There is the door. Stop reading!