Techstars or a Harvard MBA? | Hacker News Reader

Techstars or a Harvard MBA?

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76 pointsekm60 comments

The two serve a different purpose. No one thinks a Harvard MBA gives you an edge for bootstrapping your startup in your garage, and no one believes doing Techstars will help you run the division of a large corporation.

A better decision algorithm would be:

  1) figure out what you want to do in the future
  2) pick acoordingly

If you want my take on MBA vs. entrepreneurship, I blogged here (http://blog.fairsoftware.net/2009/08/12/the-cheapest-mba-pro...). Guess what: for entrepreneurs, taking the entrepreneurial route is better.

That's just not true. Many, many successful startups have been started by MBAs from Harvard and elsewhere.

A friend of mine from business school started a tech company while in school. He then raised several million in VC, and is well on his way - I believe I just saw them on CNBC. The VC he raised money from was an alum from our school.

A B-School professor of mine with an MBA started and sold not one, but two companies for north of $10M. One wasn't tech related, one (the bigger one) was.

None of those three companies had anything resembling a "technical cofounder".

Those are just a few of the examples I can think of from my own personal business school network, and I went to a school well south of Harvard in the MBA pecking order.

The entrepreneurial path is a long one. Business school is two insanely fun-filled years of your life during which you will meet lots and lots of very smart, very interesting people, and yes, even a few entrepreneurs, past present and future. Outside of the absurd cost these days, there is absolutely no downside to taking a detour through a decent MBA program.

Startups founded by Harvard MBA alumni:

  Direct Hit+
  Gilt Group*
  Hunch
  Starent*
  Viglink
  Yelp+
  Zynga*

  + Valued at over $500m
  * Valued at over $1bn

Former startups founded by college dropouts:

* Apple

* Microsoft

The fact that some people from a highly driven and intelligent group were successful at startups is not really significant in and of itself.

No, but you can compare the success rate of Harvard and Techstars alumni is founding successful startups. Given Techstars has yet to produce one $100m+ startup in the last five years and Harvard is probably in the double digits, I reckon Harvard will win.

Sure it could just be the case that Harvard has more talented people in the first place, but I'm not sure what methodology you could use to remove that bias.

No you can't, yet. The statistical sample is much too small to determine whether Techstars is on par, higher or lower with Harvard comparatively to make this statement.

How many $100m startups did Harvard produce in its first 5 years of founding?

We're not comparing HBS of 1908 to Techstars of 2011, we're comparing Techstars of 2006-2011 with HBS of 2006-2011.

Sure Techstars might be amazing in a hundred years time, but it's not exactly relavent for someone deciding what to do now.

I'm saying that Techstars has only had 5 years to refine itself. HBS has had over 100. I would think by that definition alone HBS should be churning out better results!

>I would think by that definition alone HBS should be churning out better results!

Is HBS designed to produce tech startups though? HBS is probably closer to their desired results by virtue of "refinement" of it's aims and processes, yes. However unless those aims include "creating more tech startups" I don't see how their longevity is especially relevant.

totally agreed, you can't underestimate the importance of an alumni network and lessons from past years - advantages that make HBS v. TS a meaningless comparison in terms of success output.

Not if your trying to pick one over the other, we're not making some abstract theoretical comparison here about the fundamentals of the two programs.

If Harvard is better at producing startups than TS, regardless of the reason (alumni, experience), then Harvard would actually be a better choice than TS for someone looking to found a startup.

The GP was pointing out that out of the small (relative to the number of college dropouts) group of Harvard MBA grads, there have been quite a few tech startups.

You are right that any such correlation doesn't imply causality - maybe the MBA and startup success were both caused by a prior drive.

But its an encouraging sign; that Apple and Microsoft were started by dropouts doesn't really change that.

The guy who actually started Gilt Groupe, Kevin Ryan, got his MBA at INSEAD. Not that it changes your point much.

There were three cofounders at Gilt, the other two Alexandra Wilkis Wilson and Alexis Maybank were both Harvard MBAs (where they met).

Great, two things I'll never be able to access. Looking forward to the "Ferrari or Gulfstream V" comparison.

Reminds me of a case (an HBS case, in fact) we read in b school.

"Johnny has just graduated from Harvard with not one but three job offers from top-tier Venture capital firms. What ever should he do?"

Sometimes they just get a little silly, those Harvard guys.

Don't sell yourself short. But I agree, how many people are really having to make a choice between the two opportunities?

I kind've hate when people say this type of thing. It reminds of high-schoolers getting annoyed when another student was disappointed with getting a B. People have different standards of success. It's true- not a ton of people will have this choice, but for the people who do this blog post could be very interesting/useful.

Gulfstream, obviously.

When I saw the headlines I was thinking the same thing. Should I eat lobster tonight or filet mignon? Louis Vuitton or Gucci... the choices are driving me crazy!

Why do you say you'll never be able to access these? Because you don't get things done and lack the reasoning abilities necessary to get said things done? Sure, there are people who just aren't capable of performing at the level necessary for either a Harvard MBA or Techstars, but I bet you've just convinced yourself that you aren't of that caliber. Have you actually taken on complexity and found that you just don't have it? Or are you complaining because you've been conditioned to think you can't do it?

Remember this is an international site. Coming from a poor eastern europe or african country, his chances of ever getting in reach of one of those programs are near inexistant.

That said i am from germany, and without parents that have the funds and passion to guide you in that direction... its not much prettier...

I think it is important to remember that there are many of us on HN that are not very good developers (i.e. inexperienced), but we do have connections in the US (and business experience). I know that I, personally, would be able to mutually help people with talent in situations you describe.

Slightly off-topic sidenote: I live in Boulder, and would give up a room in my house for free for the right person involved in Techstars, if that would help. The trade-off would be help me learn to be a better programmer.

Deleted comment

Or just a visa.

Dave McClure's answer for you -

http://www.businessinsider.com/dave-mcclure-startup-presenta...

Or Orwell's answer about writing a book is relevant -

"Writing a book is a horrible, exhausting struggle, like a long bout of some painful illness. One would never undertake such a thing if one were not driven on by some demon whom one can neither resist nor understand."

http://orwell.ru/library/essays/wiw/english/e_wiw

If you even have to think about it, don't do the startup.

My favorite from PG:

  The rulers of the technology business tend to come from 
  technology, not business. So if you want to invest two 
  years in something that will help you succeed in business, 
  the evidence suggests you'd do better to learn how to hack 
  than get an MBA.

http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html

Interesting comparison - but in reality, you can usually get the school to let you defer admission for a year. That will let you play things out a little so you can make the decision with more information.

See if you can defer your Harvard MBA for 1 year and try to do TechStars. That way you can try your hand at entrepreneurship and still have the Harvard MBA in your back pocket if things don't work out in a year.

From the Harvard MBA website: How long can I defer my acceptance? Candidates should submit applications only for the year they plan to enter the MBA program. Postponements and deferrals are granted rarely and are considered on a case-by-case basis.

So it is no guarantee that you can defer it, but if you can, I think the deferral route is the best option.

Every school says that deferring is rarely allowed, but in my observation, it is fairly easy to get in reality.

My answer would be "Stanford GSB or Y Combinator." (although probably I'd do YC out of college, maybe work for one or two other startups before or after, and then when acquired, do a GSB MBA -- the straight undergrad, associate, mba path seems horrible)

I suspect that any MBA "education" programme by itself is completely worthless. You need a scientific or engineering background to put meaning to the numbers and buzzwords.

As someone who grew up around a few HBS grads (friends' parents), give it a shot.

Also, one of my co-founder's parent's went to HBS, it comes highly recommended.

Techstars means nothing to the rest of the world. And a Harvard MBA means everything to the rest of the world.

To this point, I have noticed that the further you get from Cambridge, MA the more graduating from HBS matters. In Cambridge, it's really not a big deal to be at HBS; throughout most of the USA it's pretty cool; in China, you're considered a rockstar.

I'm not saying this makes sense, just sharing what I've observed anecdotally.

pretty compelling argument, and i have to admit, i read the title link with some immediate skepticism

Sample bias.

When you graduate from a Techstars program you'll be an expert in Techstars and not much else although you'll probably have a good idea if this startup thing is something you'd like to do.

I cannot say the same thing for a person attending a two-year program, being exposed to both intensive and non-intensive graduate-level studies and acquiring knowledge through study and experience that an incubator cannot.

I'd recommend an incubator like Techstars to a [well-rounded] person with an undergraduate degree looking for a great start in this particular industry, but never in lieu of a Harvard MBA. Wouldn't even consider it.

This comes off as incredibly biased.

I haven't gone through Techstars, but I've done YC. I wouldn't consider myself an expert on YC (only reasonably knowledgeable about the session I went through), but I will say that the training and experience I gained has been invaluable in my efforts to focus on product, communicate about our vision, talk to investors (or ignore them), and much more. These things I learned from doing them, not reading about them. Does participating in YC make me an expert in building a company? No, building a company does that.

To that point, getting a Harvard MBA doesn't make you much of an expert of anything besides going through Harvard. I have interviewed plenty of marketing MBA's at my old job (not Harvard, but hear me out), and when it comes to online marketing, they don't know the basics. The modern business world, particularly online, moves so fast that it's near impossible for Universities to keep up. Regardless of how good your in-class education might be, you aren't an expert at running a business until you've done it.

I would argue that, after 1.5 years of running my own business, I am more of an expert than any fresh-out-of-Harvard-MBA, and I still don't know shit. Until you've felt the pain of firing someone, worrying about payroll, killing a partnership you've invested in, and more, you aren't an expert in business. Neither Techstars/YC nor Harvard make you an expert in anything, and the choice really comes down to what you want to do, and how long you want to spend preparing vs. actually doing something.

> (not Harvard, but hear me out)

You pretty much spelled out your won counterargument.

I'm sorry, but I don't care what school you go to, a Marketing MBA isn't going to be an expert in online advertising until they spend significant time and money doing it. I have friends who have been managing very significant marketing budgets for years. They take 6 months off and they have to re-educate themselves. Nobody walking out of the halls of Harvard jumps on Google Adwords or starts calling in PO's from major online portals and gets good results. Nobody walking out of Techstars does either. Neither of these experiences makes you an expert in managing a business, or any department thereof.

> I would argue that, after 1.5 years of running my own business, I am more of an expert than any fresh-out-of-Harvard-MBA

I congratulate you on your experiences, I truly do, but last time I checked, HBS wasn't accepting recent grads, part-time students or the occasional dropouts looking for a career change, nor those with little experience. Never mind people looking for the name cache. It wouldn't hold true for 100% of the cases, of course, because Harvard is a business after all, not a bastion of ethics. Some rich kids are going to slip in, but the vast majority are qualified to attend ~ same holds true for any incubator program.

HBS grads have on average four to six years of solid work experience, national service or administrative experience prior to being considered for admission, not to mention recommendations from employers, civic leaders and the like, a history of competitive grades, extended education, community service, upstanding morality and all that. You can check it out here: http://www.hbs.edu/mba/faq/

Not exactly a bunch of lightweights.

I'm not sure where the MBA are coming from on your end, but I can say without a doubt that a grunt with 1.5 years experience doesn't scale up to someone being admitted into the top B-Schools in the U.S. And once graduated with that fresh diploma, well, they'd give you the headlight stare if you tried to compare your TS/YC experience against theirs. They're on a whole 'nother level than someone jerking SEO. Personally, I don't like the twats and usually won't work with them, but I don't like MIT engineering peeps either, my personal preference, but I would be remiss if I didn't point out that as a whole, on average they're hard-working, intelligent strivers and given the choice, I'd go work with a recent Harvard MBA over a TS/YC grad with X years experience, and not just because I know the doors to opportunity will open faster, but also because more often than not, these people have been there before and know how to act.

In two years you should apply to Harvard, Stern, Wharton, Tuck, Stanford or Sloan. Let me know what the admissions committees think of you or if your outlook has changed.

I imagine I'd need a High School diploma for that, so probably not gonna happen.

Nobody is slamming HBS or MBA's, or questioning the quality of people going in, or coming out. You said that people attending Techstars (and YC, I assume) would not be experts in anything except their respective programs, while implying that an HBS MBA would be an expert in so much more. Simply put, I've been working in my field for 13 years, 5 of which I was managing an organization responsible for up to $60M in revenue. I had 4 years of good job experience and glowing recommendations when most of the people you're talking about were just getting their Bachelor's degree. Now, I just wrapped up YC. It didn't make me an expert in running a business, and yet it was extremely educational, even for someone who has run a decent organization before, and had been running their own startup for a year - all of which is a lot more experience than the average HBS entrant or graduate has in actual business management.

I'm sure HBS is amazing. I wouldn't kid myself about getting in. But just as going through Techstars and YC doesn't make you an expert at running a business, neither does a degree, no matter what school you get it from.

This wasn't intended to tear down the credentials of a HBS MBA. It was simply to clarify that, while you're right about TS and YC not making you an expert of anything, you may have overstated things by implying that being an HBS grad would.

I think you're confused at this point. I'm sorry, but you're comparing an independent certificate program to one of the more competitive MBA programs in the world.

As I've stated before, these incubator programs are a great primer if you've never done it before and you're seeking funding from investors. It's a very good tradeoff for ninety days. I don't have any numbers on the average age or experience level of TS/YC grads but after six years in the industry and five years of college it had no appeal to me then and it still doesn't, but for someone who's never done that before in such a focused manner, I think it's great. As a primer. I commend you on you being accepted and completing your program, but rest assured, nobody outside outside of TS/YC alum/friends is going to rank you along with Harvard MBA's. Especially not the investors. Even Eli Portnoy can tell you that.

Like I said, it's not about comparing the two. Neither one of them makes you an expert at running a business.

And, almost certainly, the amount of VC money raised by startup founders coming out of YC and that of founders coming out of Harvard cannot possibly be in favor of HBS.

What are these intensive graduate-level studies of which you speak? Because it's certainly not business school. Although if you could get in to HBS then drop out as soon as the tuition is due (not sure how this is structured) to go do techstars/yc or just your startup full-time, then you'd have the best of both worlds. Social status signals via the acceptance and drop out story, and actual experience via the startup. Plus, if you fail hard, it's not like they wouldn't let you back into b-school with a killer essay about what you learned and how you were now ready to "grow up" for the F500 gig and learn 2x2 matrices, PowerPoint buzzword bingo skills, and the type of frameworks that build nothing except little boxes around your thinking.

curious - are you a TechStars alum?

I am not, but I'm from Cambridge, Massholia and I know some of the organizers, graduates and money folks that support the program. At the time of YC making headway ('06?) I gave an incubator some thought at the time I thought that I was too old for it. In retrospect, I'd still give it a go today and I'm over the hill. High-energy, focused programs are great, but again, are no substitute for traditional education.

fair enough

i think all programs/institutions etc are what you make of them

there are students who go to Ivy Leagues and soak it up and there are others who f* it up

likewise, there are startups who learn a ton and excel in an accelerator and there are others who flounder

I would think Harvard has more value than TechStars. Now if you said YC vs Havard, then its a big difference.

Interesting read especially for someone who is still in undergrad. One thing strikes me though: "though I suspect the brand cache of an MBA program will be longer lasting"

I disagree. This is the modern industrial age. This is the time when 20 years from now, history books will look back and talk about the Carnegie and Rockefellers of our time.

And when grade school kids are memorizing facts about important figures, Techstars and YC are going to be two of their vocabulary words. It will be the first time those schools of thought appear -- HBS will still always have a great reputation and its own prestige, but in the long term, the brand cache of TechStars and YC will leave a different, more unique mark in history. #justsayin :)

I had this choice as well (HBS or start company)... last company grew to 100+ people, learned stuff HBS will never teach you. If you want to be an entrepreneur 100% then be an entrepreneur. If you want to do VC, IB, consulting, C-level exec at F500 - HBS. Good luck. To each his own.

For the vast majority of cases, doing a startup funded by TechStars gives someone way more credibility than an MBA.

this is simply false, generally. This would have been accurate: "doing a startup funded by TechStars gives someone way more credibility than an MBA, within the population that reads Hacker News." --- which is about, oh, i don't know .01% of the world's population. A top-5 MBA (most especially, one from HBS) opens doors for you in every industry, on every continent. YC/TS makes you the cool kid at parties in SoMa. Let's try and keep some perspective here.

Based on the assumption that the person rating your credibility isn't at BIGCO, but at somewhere else in/near the startup sphere.

It is impossible to overstate how much you are underestimating the reach, influence, and prestige granted to graduates of HBS.

Not saying it should matter (I've seen how the sausage is made), but it does matter to the billions of people who consider it to be the best of the best, almost none of whom have ever heard of Tech Stars.

Even in the startup community TechStars isn't that well known. TechStars, YC, etc. are well known among a certain clique within the startup community, but it's all too easy to forget that most tech startup founders will never have heard of them.

probably true, though the learning is what's important anyway.

Statements like this demonstrate that the anti-education movement has reached the tipping point.

There is no way on earth that placement in a somewhat obscure accelerator/mentorship program offers more "credibility" than an MBA from what is arguably the most prestigious post secondary institution on the planet. And that assertion requires no support or justification.

You don't need a Harvard MBA to be successful, but having one will open more doors than you can imagine.

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