Comment by pcbro141 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by pcbro141 | Hacker News Reader

I'm in your age range and sadly I'm hearing from A LOT of young men that Tinder is really damaging their self esteem (specifically the lack of matches most men get which can feel as bad as getting rejected face to face a thousand times to some men).

It's also disgusting that these apps take advantage of vulnerable young men desperate for connection by up-selling them on an endlessly growing list of paid add-ons that supposedly increase your odds of finding a partner (Boosts, Super Likes, Plus, Super Boost, Plus, Gold, Platinum, it never ends). Unfortunately, society at large does not really care that much about young men's mental health as much, so you won't see the media covering this predatory behavior targeting men.

IMO dating apps are probably doing more harm than good to young men in general, I think you're going to have to find ways to socialize in person. Maybe Meetups (the site/app) but don't just stick to coding stuff, branch out.

Also, I heard Tinder is like 70%+ male. Tinder is just not a good app for average guys.

Actually I know even above average guys (handsome, jacked, top 5-10% income) who don't have as much success as you might think (they can get women, but they have to jump through a lot of hoops just to get a woman who is quite frankly below their level, objectively speaking. To the point they question if it's even worth doing the dancing monkey routine.) They usually find women are far more receptive IRL compared to on the dating apps.

This is extremely relatable and true. Thank you.

The Tinder game is so horrible, 5% of the women get the attention of 80% of the men or more, leaving both the men and women in the other group feeling like there is something wrong with them. People feel the need to edit themselves in order to fit the false narrative created by these gamified dating scenarios, or else experience the fear of dying alone.

There is nothing wrong with you.

Our complicated, 3-dimensional, deep, personalities and lives are not meant to be reduced to a catalog, best consumed on the toilet, dismissed or accepted instantly based upon a false presentation designed to harness the evolutionary biology of actual living beings.

For money.

This is not constrained to human society. There is an amusing anecdote of the Australian Jewel Beetle that also experiences the Tinder Effect. This nearly caused their extinction. I encourage you to watch Donald Hoffman's 2015 TED Talk "Do we see reality as it is?"[0] linked below for your convenience. I've timestamped the relevant section, skip forward about 100 seconds or so for the direct discussion of the Australian jewel beetle.

[0] - https://youtu.be/oYp5XuGYqqY?t=349

> [0] - https://youtu.be/oYp5XuGYqqY?t=349

While most of the talk is great, he just handwaves the idea that reality is not "brains and neurons," nor what physicists try to model, but he makes no effort in explaining what's the difference between "reality" and "physics."

It would be great if someone who understood that last part could explain it.

Yes, that is true, he acknowledges that he doesn't know what reality "really is" otherwise.

Consider Emmanuel Kant's Rose Colored glasses for a moment before dismissing Hoffman's ideas outright. This idea has been brushed against before, I find it very interesting and supplies a lot of fertile earth to till.

If you would like to engage further, I recommend Curt Jaimungal's multi-hour conversation with Dr. Hoffman on his podcast "Theories of Everything".

The link to his youtube video of the discussion is here, it's available on the podcast RSS feeds too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmieNQH7Q4w

^And 1 hour after I write this comment, a woman from online dating who I arranged to meet just stood me up, no response well past our agreed meeting time :)

We're not alone buddy, many men are experiencing the same frustrations with the humiliating/degrading jester routine of online dating, it's just that men suffer in silence in this society so it doesn't get talked about a lot. Online dating is filled with a lot of BS games like this, especially for men.

I highly recommend Esther Perel’s work and specifically her two podcasts on commodetized relationships without accountability - ghosting, summering etc.

https://overcast.fm/+P0dZxP_w

Tinder has completely messed up dating in terms of spontaneously meeting people. The only chance normal guys have for dating now is via their friend groups and with girls who don't use Tinder (which is still a surprising percentage in certain circles of 'nerdier' girls)

In my opinion the best bet is to choose an activity and do it. You will naturally socialize with other like minded individuals, have some fun, maybe even learn a useful skill, and you will for certain feel good doing it :)

People (generalizing here) are attracted to happy, engaged, healthy people. Attractiveness markers are health markers. If you find yourself with an internal voice telling you you are bad or wrong or not good enough, may I humbly suggest adopting this mantra in their place: "I can become good at anything."

because you can.

This is excellent advice. I was 26, living alone in Chicago, and I was having a hard time making friends- let alone getting a date. I signed up to learn French at the Alliance Francaise - and I ended up meeting my wife. We’ve been happily married for 16 years.

My assumption from the outside is that Tinder is a hookup site, and that you’re not going to meet anyone worth dating there anyway. I’d suggest volunteering with orgs which look to be supported by young members, business groups targeted towards “young professionals”, etc. I’d look for groups that either have regular members or encourage some kind of repeat involvement, so that you have time to meet people and make friends naturally. Lastly, I think it’s important to join such groups with the intent on having fun.

I wish you all the best. I promise you that there are others out there who are also trying to make friends and find someone special.

Just as a counter point to hookups are bad I met my wife by randomly hooking up with her at a bar. Just because people are interested in finding people to have sex with doesn’t reduce their worth.

Hi & congrats! What you say is very true, but I would like to point out that you were following my advice. Bars are a classic social gathering and definitely work too. Bar activities include casual conversations, billiards, dart games, magic tricks (there are scads of tricks with cups and drinks) dancing, etc

Personally I avoid bars, but it is indeed fine when approached with appropriate caution (as would be rock climbing gyms, for example, which are a stellar choice btw)

Sorry you misunderstand. This is much closer to hooking up with someone from Tinder which is why I drew the comparison. We left together about fifteen minutes after meeting one another.

It’s also ironic that I’ve climbed a lot and never found anyone to date let alone that I get on with as well.

I strongly disagree that bar hookups are the same as Tinder because you can achieve hookups quickly. I question if you have used tinder recently.

In bar scenarios, you are both moving around and maybe a bit uninbibited, exhibiting relaxed body language, talking and engaging in some courtship behaviors. You can see how people interact in the real world.

Swiping left or right as you contemlate the causes of hemorrhoids is so far divorced from this normal behavior, and there is no bar algorithm beseeching you to "super like" a curated, mostly fake dating profile chosen not for your future engagement ring, but as a sales tactic to drive "engagement". Buying someone a drink is only superficially similar to internet (paid) likes.

It isn't impossible for it to work fine, but Tinder sucks for society.

This is spot on, pick an activity that you are interested in and make it your serious hobby. And it doesn't have to be just one activity, pick a few. However, don't pick an activity just because you think that where you can find relationships. Also some activities are just not that good for meeting people. There has to be some balance of your interest and social opportunities.

In my case, when I first got serious about dealing with unbearable loneliness, I went down very dark path of gurus and pickup artists, who basically advocated doing things just for hooking up. I did end up trying a lot of things but not all activities were that interesting to me. It took a long time for me to realize what really interested me and I focused on only those activities which actually made me connect with people at deeper level. However, I was not feeling lonely anymore, so I am not sure if I would have figured out what really interested me if I was still lonely.

I suggest to start off, try a lot of different activities, until you find something that you truly enjoy. Here are a few suggestions,

Outdoors free yoga classes - not indoors. In my experience, people are friendly in outdoors classes but most women don't want to talk to anyone. So don't ruin it by forcing conversation. If anything, make some new guy friends.

Rock climbing - hate to suggest it as rock climbing community is very friendly and don't want it to get ruined by people joining it just for hookups. It is also very good mental and physical exercise.

Dog - Volunteer to take your friends' dogs to dog parks, especially if there is one with good social scene. Girls will start conversations with you. If you do enjoy taking care of a dog, adopt one or start volunteering at your local shelter.

Running - Running is one sports where women outnumber men. Join a local running group. But any sports club would do, crossfit gyms maybe another option.

I’ll provide a perspective not usually found on programming forums - over 6 months of usage, I had ~250 matches on Tinder when I was 23. I’m not unusually attractive by any stretch, but before I started I treated getting matches as a technical problem and A/B tested pictures as well as seriously studied what types of pictures tend to do well, and deliberately shot each type.

Of those 250 matches, I didn’t message half. These were people with almost nothing in their profile who I also didn’t find particularly attractive. Half the people I did message didn’t respond back or ghosted after a few messages

So about 60 short to medium conversations. In the majority of those, it was clear that they weren’t particularly interested in dating or were on the app for an ego boost(or perhaps I wasn’t attractive enough for them)

I was able to get about a dozen numbers, out of which a third ghosted me and a third got ghosted by me. I dated 2 people casually and met 1 woman that caused me to delete the app, and I have been with her for 1.5 years.

If I had to start over again, I reckon the odds of me finding a relationship is very very low. The LTR started after the girl messaged me first( which happened like 1% of the time) but it was obvious she was attracted and interested in meeting. But I count myself very lucky that happened. I would likely be single if I didn’t match with her.

TL;DR: Tinder is a huge crapshoot even if you’re getting matches

I agree. It's like a more revenue generating version of social media. I think it's important for people to put themselves out there in real life. At least for me, since joining Tinder when I entered university, every real and meaningful romantic interaction has come from people I've met in person, and I've been using Tinder for years now. Talking to someone in person has a higher success rate, but is definitely more nerve racking. I've come to see that nervousness as a sign that I should shoot my shot. This isn't even just talking to women. Ever sing karaoke? That's nerve racking, but that nervous feeling that I get just makes me know I have to do it to just get a little more well rounded.

Most of the time, social networks tend to hurt self esteem. That applies to Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Tinder, Reddit, and even HN to a certain extent (seeing FANG devs can make you feel inadequate). Moderation is key, but if you're having trouble moderating yourself, just get off and get into the real world. People are much better there in my experience. Meeting people in person can be tricky, but that's a whole extra layer of complexity.

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