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Comment by dexwiz | Hacker News Reader

I don't think recipes lie, I think most people don't understand what caramelizing is versus softening. Caramelizing is great for onion focused recipes like French Onion Soup and creates a rich flavor profile. But for everyday recipes using Mirepoix-like flavor base, 10 minutes is enough to cook out the water, lessen the Sulfur flavors, and soften the onions. A stock concentrate can help boost the flavor profile without needing an hour. Softening is enough for most people, and recipes are starting to use that term over Caramelizing.

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Here are three quoted recipe instructions:

] "Add the onions to the skillet and increase the heat to medium-high. Cook until they begin to turn dark brown and somewhat soft, about 5 minutes."

] “Stir and fry for about 5 minutes or until the onions turn a medium-brown colour.”

] “Add the onion and cook for 8 to 10 minutes, stirring occasionally, until golden brown.”

How do you get "dark", "medium-brown", or "golden brown" in under 10 minutes, and without caramelizing?

Add a pinch of baking soda.

First DDG link: https://www.onions-usa.org/onionista/faster-caramelized-onio...

So it's a lie of omission?

Those quoted recipes don't mention baking soda.

The quoted recipes were written by people who don’t know what they are doing.

Ah, you're making a Hanlon's razor sort of argument.

In which case the layer of deceit is the conceit that the editors of popular cookbooks can spot and will correct obvious BS.

The "layer of deceit" is that they claim you can do something in a particular way within a certain time frame and that this is not actually possible. And cook books aren't written by editors.

I'm responding to moistly's comment, not the essay.

Certainly editors don't write cookbooks. But they decide what to publish. I personally think the essay is correct. My followup on this thread is that even if the essay isn't correct, there are still other "layers of deceit" to consider.

The top-level of this thread was dexwiz's statement "I don't think recipes lie". I pointed out how that statement doesn't jibe with the presented evidence. moistly followed up that it wasn't a lie, but ignorance "by people who don’t know what they are doing."

My observation is that if we accept that the authors aren't lying, but are simply incompetent, then a different layer of deceit arises - the belief that cooking columns in national newspapers and cookbooks by reputable publishing companies will have enough oversight and not publish recipes 'by people who don’t know what they are doing'.

But editors are likely to be the type to change “brown” to “caramelize” because it sounds more upscale.

1. I've seen lots of recipes that mention if describe caramelization and not one has mentioned baking soda so it's besides the point.

2. None of them will ever list baking soda because it will affect the taste in a horrible way.

Baking soda speeds up the process but it also affects the texture in a way that isn't really pleasant unless you're pureeing the onions for soup.

It isn't really worth it unless you are making a good amount. It is adjusting PH, which might get you color faster, but it is pretty easy to get too much in and have your onions taste of chemicals. The linked article went with 1/8 teaspoon (.625 grams) per pound (about 450g) of onion. It makes it really easy to get too much, especially when you are just doing 1 or two onions.

Unless the dish relies on the flavor of caramelized onions, I just go with lesser cooking time.

All true: I do mean a literal pinch. I use it for batches of French onion soup so, yes, a lot of onions (most of it goes straight to the freezer, to mature like a fine wine.

https://www.seriouseats.com/how-to-caramelize-onions-classic

These guys say baking soda turns it into sludge.

Here you go: https://www.thespruceeats.com/how-to-brown-onions-913397

There is browning and there is caramelisation.

They get brown within 10 minutes. I never cared about caramelization, but onions can change color rather fast.

If we just want them to change color we can do that a whole lot faster than 10 minutes. But you wouldn't like the taste. :)

Sure but they get brown in a tasty way in ten minutes.

Browning, unless we're talking about burning onions, is caramelisation. Just a small amount.

> Browning, unless we’re talking about burning onions, is caramelisation

No, its not. Heck, even “caramelizing” onions mostly isn’t caramelization, its Maillard-reaction browning combined with slower cooking so that the cooking is more complete, retaining less of the firm texture.

https://www.thespruceeats.com/how-to-brown-onions-913397

> How do you get “dark”, “medium-brown”, or “golden brown” in under 10 minutes, and without caramelizing?

Thin cuts, a decent pan, avoid sweet onions (which take longer to brown), and use a little higher heat than the center of the medium-high range, IME.

Browning is much quicker than caramelizing (see, e.g., https://marxfood.com/caramelizing-onions-vs-browning-onions/ which gives 15 minutes for browning, and an hour for caramelizing; you can push browning more easily.)

(The quoted 5 to brown + 5 to caramelize in TFA is bullshit, though, no question, but most of the quotes in the article aren’t about caramelizing, they are about browning – often lightly browning – in a fairly reasonable time for the level of browning described.)

Sweet onions take longer to brown?

Whatever kind of sweet onions we get locally start to turn brown after 7 minutes on medium high (keeping the skillet around 350F).

> Sweet onions take longer to brown?

I’ve read that the lack of sulfur compounds has that effect, and my subjective impression is consistent with that, but I haven’t done structured trials. (And I don’t prefer sweet onions in those applications, in any case.)

This makes a lot of sense and goes a long way to explain the time discrepancies. It's sad that I had to scroll down the page and find these comments buried at the bottom when they should be at the top.

Perhaps they have higher stoves.

I would not say caramelized, but I certainly get significant browning in less than 3 minutes in a wok on a 7 500 W work burner.

Most ordinary stoves are about 2 000 W, but apparently professional stoves go to 4 000 W, and the professional “jet engine” work burners in many restaurants achieve 20 000 W.

I have a fairly high output gas range and my observation is that a lot of recipes overstate the settings I want to use.

On the flip side, to your point, the large burner on my stove is fine for a wok (I'd have to look up the output) but it's a lot more than a typical electric stove would put out (and hears up the sides)--which is why America's Test Kitchen recommends people use a skillet rather than a wok.

And the pan matters too - a wok may heat up faster on the same burner compared to cast iron.

And “professional kitchens” often have everything at temperature already - the wok was just used moments before so there’s no preheating.

I recently put in a 36 kW (125 kBTU/hr) wok burner, outdoors of course. It’s insane how hot it gets.

https://youtu.be/O-Y5XJwBPvw

I don't think the Madhur Jaffrey recipe actually calls for caramelisation but I don't have the original in front of me. It would also use red onions and be done in a pan that is more like to a wok than to a western pan, iirc.

The quote is on page 52: https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/pa... .

> Heat the oil in a wide, heavy pot over a medium-high flame. Brown the meat cubes in several batches and set to one side. Put the cardamom, bay leaves, cloves, peppercorns, and cinnamon into the same hot oil. Stir once and wait until the cloves swell and the bay leaves begin to take on colour. This just takes a few seconds. Now put in the onions. Stir and fry for about 5 minutes or until the onions turn a medium-brown colour.

For some other quotes along the same lines: page 51 at https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/pa... :

> Heat the oil in a wide, flameproof casserole-type pot over a medium-high flame. ... Put the onions and garlic into the same pot and turn the heat down to medium. Stir and fry the onion-garlic mixture for about 10 minutes or until it has browned.

(The introductory text on page 50 is clear this is supposed to be a "heavy pot", not something thin like a wok.)

Page 46 at https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/pa... :

> Heat the oil in a wide, heavy saucepan over a medium-high flame. When hot, put in the finely sliced onions. Stir and fry for 10-12 minutes or until the onions turn a nice, reddish-brown colour. You may have to turn the heat down somewhat towards the end of this cooking period.

Page 55 at https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/pa... :

> Heat the oil in a large, wide, and preferably non-stick pot over a medium-high flame. When hot, put in the onions. Stir and fry for about 12 minutes or until the onions are a reddish-brown color.

I don't believe this refers to caramelized onions, which are sweet and slowly cooked. It refers to onions fried at a high temperature until brown or turning brown. This can certainly be done in under 10 minutes and is common in Indian cookery.

I cook a Madhur Jaffrey recipe or two most weeks.

There is no explicit call for caramalisation here. As the sibling post points out, that is not what you would normally do for Indian cuisine. I found it a bit amusing that the article leveled the accusation of lazy writing, with a pretty lazy example.

Made all the more amusing since the author is absolutely right and there are many, many good examples available to support their argument.

Seriously? Onions easily brown in 10 minutes.

They're not caramelized, but the vast majority of recipes mean browned when they say "10 minutes."

Very few recipes actually want caramelized onions. For instance, almost zero Italian recipes involve caramelizing.

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