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Comment by afavour | Hacker News Reader

I feel as though a comment similar to this appear on every Facebook-related topic. And don't get me wrong, you're absolutely right! I've also cut out Facebook from my life as much as I can and I'm happier for it.

But "everyone just needs to cut out that bad stuff!" doesn't really work on a societal scale. Not to sound hyperbolic but I do feel as though the social media era has caused widespread addiction to the dopamine hits these apps provide and I don't think everyone is going to stop doing it just because someone tells them it would be good for them to do it. IMO society is far better off for the concerted campaigns that were fought against smoking. Maybe something similar is needed here.

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Not only that, but putting the responsibility on the individual is a classic narrative used by companies to pass buck onto the consumer. It's basically a divide-and-conquer tactic, because it undermines the concept of taking collective action.

How does "everyone should use Facebook less" undermine collective action? Isn't it a call for collective action?

Because it suggests that the only course of action against these kinds of practices requires individual choices to not use Facebook.

Isn't that what collective action is? Individuals all agreeing to take action?

You're confusing one ingredient in a dish for the dish. I agree that it's an important ingredient though.

Where it falls short is that individual choices cannot fix systemic issues larger than the individual. That requires a systemic fix pushed for by collective action. And sure, collective action is built on individual choices to join that collective action but there's more to it than that.

Moving away from Facebook is good, but it does not protect you from the next predatory practice unless collective preventative measures are taken.

But it’s not a call for coercion.

People can’t be trusted to make decisions for themselves because cigarettes / alcohol / social media / sugar / pornography is addictive. And since their bad choices have negative consequences on third parties because of health care costs / bad politics / family breakdown, we should get to tell them what to do.

Exactly.

I consider social media to be largely harmful, but so is beer and soda. Life is too short to be angry about what others chose to do.

So you're against age limits on alcohol purchases? You're against banning or limiting advertising tobacco products in public spaces?

I’m against treating adults like children, but I’m ok with treating children like children.

You don't collectively use facebook less, you just use facebook less. Things that are collective actions require some sort of coordination and planning.

Yeah collective action would be moving your friend group onto an alternative platform. Which is what we should be doing.

It's the "reduce, reuse, recycle" of this generation.

This was a fine enough message until corporations got us to forget that it was meant to be applied in that order. Reduction of consumption is paramount, but bad for corporate profit, so corporations promoted the idea of recycling being just as good if not better than reduction.

Agree. I believe in a short while, maybe after some more congressional inquiry, or maybe another political fiasco, questioning the mental health effects of social media is going to be a mainstream idea. Tooter, Fakebook, et al will be on the defensive, but it will be the modern care-y feel-y corporate message version, encouraging us to use social media “responsibly” while still manufacturing an addictive and harmful product.

I'm sure we can have both. A call for collective action and change through regulation or legislation.

For many it would be very easy to just cut down on social media or stop altogether and find alternatives for the few things that are good about fb. I did it and I surely don't have any more willpower than the average person. For the rest, let's help them make the right choice to break the circle of addiction, talk to your friends, talk to your family, maybe reconsider what's important for you and whether you need that job at a company that makes many people's lives miserable even if it pays well. On top of that, let's try to convince lawmakers to introduce legislation and regulation. You need to do all the things, and everybody needs to, otherwise nothing will change.

Can you elaborate on what legislation and regulation would yield positive effects with no negative externalities/regulatory capture that prevents any new companies from competing with Facebook?

I'm obviously not an expert but what I can imagine is

- requirement of social media companies to correct the record and show people where they were the target of misinformation

- childhood development informed minimum age requirement for social media use

- banning of ultra-specific targeting the way it is done right now

- banning of political advertising

The list goes on and, again, obviously I'm not an expert in all the externalities, I just see a problem and would like to see it addressed. I have suggestions but am open to other suggestions. Anything that's not "the market will fix it".

show people where they were the target of misinformation

Ah perfect, let Dorsey and Zuck be the arbiters of truth.

That definitely has not backfired during covid right? As I recall both platforms suppressed any mention of a lab leak theory as “conspiracy”.

> Ah perfect, let Dorsey and Zuck be the arbiters of truth.

That's not what I said. It could very well come from an independent organization. Fb and others would just be responsible for putting it in front of the people's eyes that they have shown disinformation to. Is that a perfect solution? Probably not but what the hell else are we gonna do?

What do you suggest we do instead?

Delete facebook, the company?

Regarding trying to get individuals to change their behavior: I mean, a lot of social media posts are just people reposting things from meme groups, maybe adding a sentence or two here.

If those reposts get no, 1, or 2 likes - which is what I see a lot when occasionally browsing people on my friends list manually from time to time (as they've been unfollowed) - then no one's even reading your reposts or opinions. Why are you doing this? Is this even fun to you?

People might not think of what they are doing because they are bored, or trying to avoid situations, but maybe if explained to them exactly what they are doing and how pointless it is--maybe they will change.

"The medium is the message".

The message of the current Web is the death of local journalism, deep moats of pillaged user-data protecting monopolists, internationally "democratized" propaganda, and no privacy anywhere.

If you want to change the message, the medium will have to change.

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