I'm not condoning theft but CA state policy is a large part of why this issue hurts as bad as it does.
But aside, would you really be okay going back to the days of photochemical smog choking away your sunlight and skyrocketing rates of asthma and acid rain dissolving your ancestor's gravestones??
Federal law requires the catalytic converters. Everyone is definitely better off for them.
Around here they're ~1hr of shop labor plus the cost of the cat (the latter being like $50 for an aftermarket cat up to a few hundred for an OEM cat (though there's a few vehicles with oddly expensive ones) with the 50-state cats always costing an integer multiple more.
>But aside, would you really be okay going back to the days of photochemical smog choking away your sunlight and skyrocketing rates of asthma and acid rain dissolving your ancestor's gravestones??
What part about "sniffs withing spec at the tailpipe" was unclear?
https://www.walkerexhaust.com/products/light-vehicle/catalyt...
It won't sniff within spec at the tailpipe without the catalyst.
> what cat you put on what as long as it sniffs within spec
Cali cats are often more $ but, where in the USA is there a $50 catalyst? More over, which shop charges less then $100/hr labor?
The down stream cat cleans up the photosmog producing tailpipe emissions.
California learned how horrible the smog is, we knew about the causes almost a hundred years ago. Letting people install mystery cats, possibly made from real cats, is going back to the era of "west side story"
Don’t know how true that is, or what the effect on price would be, but your reply didn’t seem to fit with how I understood the post.
California certifies the cats so that they ensure they are created well enough to last a while. They don't want a cat installed that works for a couple of days, just long enough to pass the smog dyno test and then who cares. It's probably excessive, but the smog was so bad, I can't help but empathize.
You can totally do that janky work and it will "sniff within spec at the tailpipe". Soon, the substrate melts in the cat because your check engine light throws P0125 next week because your car is in open loop from your coolant temp sensor malfunctioning and you are too cheap to go fix because the emissions check isn't for 3 months. It's just the engine coolant temp sensor, that doesn't cause global warming, right?
People want to get cheap cats because they don't see the value proposition in driving the photochemical smog towards zero, or they misunderstand the difference between the emissions check (ECU monitors provide this) and the smog check (the standalone dyno "moving road" load test) or mischaracterize all this "bullshit" to be about "funding" and "global warming" which they are motivated to reason is fake or whatever.
For further information, acquire California's CARB cert document CALIFORNIA EVALUATION PROCEDURES FOR NEW AFTERMARKET CATALYTIC CONVERTERS[0]
Peruse (e)(3) also sections (A) and (B) to learn of the age requirements. They require of cats that they work for 5 years.
Sections (e)(4), (A) (B) and (C) describes how they should function including fuel economy considerations (appreciated, given prices) and how they must be securely installed in order to prevent failures during the time period.
(e)(5)(A) and (B) outlines the procedure for ensuring they function into the required life of the device. They require the cat to be aged until they cause the MIL (check engine light) in order to verify the quality.
This is hardly affectatious testing. But hypothetically, if you were really hurting, I'd mail you a 50-state cat and then sleep at night.
[0] - PROCEDURES: https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermktcat/amcat_proc_2017.pd...
The cheapo cat doesn't have many precious metals in, and barely is doing its job. The sniff test done at the annual inspection doesn't typically test for all types of gas. So probably the cheapo one might 'pass the test' but still be far from meeting the law.
Either that or the makers of cheapo knock-off catalytic converters have some amazing R&D that even the OEM's can't figure out...
You're missing the point: new CA-legal catalytic converters cost 200-400% the price of 49-state legal ones because of the CARB certification. Most vendors won't even ship a new 49-state cat to a CA address, and selling used ones is technically illegal.
This isn't about cat vs. no cat. It's about CA creating a lucrative black market while simultaneously strictly requiring cats be kept in good working order via regular smog checks.
If the smog checks are worth a damn it shouldn't be necessary to certify the catalysts; if the cat isn't working, the vehicle should fail its regular smog test.
CA is fundraising here, and it's no doubt a contributing factor in catalyst theft within the state.
>if the cat isn't working, the vehicle should fail its regular smog test.
The vehicle ECU monitors the exhaust composition before and after the first catalyst. Downstream, the performance is not monitored by the computer. afiak the ECU doesn't have the capability to monitor nox and hydrocarons directly. The reason for this is that a cheap, reliable oxygen sensor is employed for monitoring.
Maybe it's possible to add that regulation federally.
49-state legal, direct-fit: $118 https://www.ebay.com/itm/253120020746
CA-legal, universal: $776 https://www.ebay.com/itm/304044103436
CA-legal direct-fit: $1048 (!) https://www.ebay.com/itm/174087409201
> The vehicle ECU monitors the exhaust composition before and after the first catalyst. Downstream, the performance is not monitored by the computer. afiak the ECU doesn't have the capability to monitor nox and hydrocarons directly. The reason for this is that a cheap, reliable oxygen sensor is employed for monitoring.
I don't see what any of this has to do with smog tests, and it's not even accurate for all vehicles (pre obd2 has just a single narrow band o2 sensor before the cat) but this is completely off-topic. The tests shouldn't rely on the vehicle's systems for measuring emissions, it just creates more opportunities for fuckery.
CA smog tests use their own emissions monitoring equipment and have already employed rolling roads to put the vehicles through varying loads during the test.
>I don't see what any of this has to do with smog tests, and it's not even accurate for all vehicles (pre obd2 has just a single narrow band o2 sensor
You mentioned the smog tests, saying if the vehicle can't measure them they aren't worth a damn
>If the smog checks are worth a damn it shouldn't be necessary to certify the catalysts; if the cat isn't working, the vehicle should fail its regular smog test.
Thats why it is not off-topic.
No cars monitor for the smog gasses. That's why Cali uses a special sniffer and a dyno to run a load test. In order to accomplish their stated goal of reducing pbotochemical smog, they must employ a dyno to test under load to monitor the production of nox and hydrocarbons out the tail pipe.
The oxygen sensors pre-obd2 were never used in any state for emissions, In my state we did a 2 speed idle test on a dyno which is being retired currently as all required vehicles are now exempt from this test.
We still are running oxygen sensors for engine management in every car. They do not sense any smog gasses.
- check engine light
- fault codes
- readiness monitors
its a legislative joke.
In EU even a 20 year old bmw e36 cat still goes for ~$1K, because we actually test emissions.
I bought that ebay cat last year after my cat was destroyed in a U-joint failure when the prop shaft impacted it at speed.
It is not empty, and the car passes a CA sniffer test with flying colors using it.
It is pretty cheaply constructed though, thin walls, and the ID seemed a bit smaller than stock so not great for power.
The cheap ones are less resilient as you noticed. When hydrocarbons (such as from blowby or imperfectly metered fuel) hit the substrate it works against the catalyst chemistry and the catalyst produces combustion clearing it up. But this skyrockets the temperatures, damages or melts the substrate reducing its effectiveness using up the substrate. There is a lot of expansion and contraction in a 1000-degree cat, failing ones can double that, so the poor bonding techniques will turn it into a rattle can fast.
Thin walls, less substrate, and poor bonding lead them to fail prematurely.
Good luck.
[0] https://www.designnews.com/stub/we-make-it-simple-how-honda-...
[1] https://jalopnik.com/when-honda-gave-gm-one-of-historys-most...
However, the first article mentions leaded gas as its upside, which is abhorrent, causing me to literally tremble in fear.
I'll restrain myself from any analysis as I'm unfamiliar with this technology. Very interesting, thank you.
Edit: a fairer example would be a ford focus - one of the most popular cars in the uk. £200 aftermarket main cat, £70 aftermarket pre-cat.