U.S. Commerce Department rescinds TikTok, WeChat prohibited transactions list | Hacker News Reader

U.S. Commerce Department rescinds TikTok, WeChat prohibited transactions list

reuters.com

79 pointsshivbhatt80 comments

> "China has been urging the U.S. side to respect market economy principles and international trade rules, to immediately stop stretching the concept of national security and stop wantonly abusing state power to suppress China's tech companies," spokesman Zhai Lijian said on Tuesday in Beijing.

Ironic. I don't suppose they will allow Twitter, Facebook etc in China after this.

there's a difference between the US treating TikTok or WeChat differently even compared to American companies vs the fact that China just has an entirely different legal framework. Facebook or Twitter aren't banned because they're American, they're banned because they're not willing to comply with Chinese law at all, which Chinese companies themselves are subject to. Bing operates in China, as do a bunch of other large American tech firms.

Chinese law is incredibly anticompetitive. These companies are willing to comply with Chinese laws but these laws just screw them so they exit the market, then the Chinese censors block access to their domain names as it is impossible that they are complying on the information side of things.

Separate and nuanced issue, as you pointed out. But not complete.

I’m absolutely not a fan of China’s behavior here (and in many other areas), but if it’s true that these companies “exit the market,” then getting blocked by the firewall doesn’t mean anything.

What they mean by “exit the market” is to still actually participate in the market but not take on any of its obligations (again, despite my own disagreement with the “obligations”)

>These companies are willing to comply with Chinese laws

They're really not. This is why Google exited China. The reason why some American tech firms don't operate in China isn't because they can't handle regulatory compliance (they obviously can given their size and resources), they don't operate in China because complying with Chinese laws would create absolutely bad PR in the United States.

Which means this is not an issue of free-trade but of internal US politics between domestic companies and the public. The United States states isn't treated unfairly, it's just for the first time experiencing what it means to not be able to enforce American standards abroad.

Again, just like doing business in the US or Europe isnt a single factor, its not a single factor in China either

You finally brought up Google, we didnt. Google is the primary example of the anticompetitive nature, where the state used its mandatory backdoors to steal IP from Google and give it to Baidu.

Mmm bad PR ok, possible a factor

Chinese law is extremely hostile to foreign companies, forcing them to give up their IP and have a large operating presence in China (including a political arm of the CCP within the company). No other country is so hostile to foreigners, and international pressure should be applied to get then to change this behavior. It is antithetical to free trade and free markets.

It is completely understandable that foreign companies are staying out of China, because China effectively bans them from operating unless they are local companies.

> ..have a large operating presence in China (including a political arm of the CCP within the company)

I've never heard of this, do you have examples? I'll be happy to read about it. Normally there will be some PR/communication office under marketing sure, but I don't know what a 'political arm' could be.

It's article 19 of the Company Law of the People's Republic of China: http://mg2.mofcom.gov.cn/article/policy/China/201910/2019100...

Article 19: In a company, an organization of the Communist Party of China shall be established to carry out the activities of the party in accordance with the charter of the Communist Party of China. The company shall provide the necessary conditions for the activities of the party organization.

However, I don't think think this can be filed under "hostility to foreigners", since Chinese companies are subject to the same requirements.

I agree. It doesn't read anything like a 'political arm' requirement. A chinese page for explanation: http://www.gongsifa.net/jieshi/gongsizhongdegongchandangzuzh...

It simply means a company should allow party members to form smallest units (if >3 people) and organise events according to party rules.

It's been a mandatory thing for years.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-congress-companies/...

It's mandatory in the sense that company law provides the means of forming party units. If you have to associate that with 'political pressure' mandation then I guess it's more of a view point difference. For me the real influence doesn't have to rely on such mechanism, hence it might be a bit biased in my opinion.

The NYT’s podcast “The Daily” had a really good episode a few days ago about Apple & China that touches on these sorts of “political” requirements. I think it’s much more subtle (but no less concerning) than parent comment implies.

Episode link (w/ transcript): https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/podcasts/the-daily/apple-...

Something left out of the podcast: Apple has spent over US$400B (400,000,000,000) buying back stock since 2013Q2. The buybacks started around the same time Tim Cook apologized (April 1, 2013) and have continued, without pause, since.

'Poorly Made in China' is a great book on this matter: https://www.amazon.com/Poorly-Made-China-Insiders-Production...

> Chinese law is extremely hostile to foreign companies, forcing them to give up their IP and have a large operating presence in China (including a political arm of the CCP within the company)

Reciprocity legislation isn’t a bad idea. Chinese companies operating in the U.S. must transfer technology to a local affiliate, pay for a DoC agent to be on site, et cetera.

Given how high profile the Chinese trade imbalances are it does make one wonder what other lopsided trade deals the US has outstanding.

> Given how high profile the Chinese trade imbalances are it does make one wonder what other lopsided trade deals the US has outstanding.

I think it's something like all of them. Being a superpower isn't free. Besides the lopsided defense commitments, IIRC, the US deliberately negotiated domestically disadvantageous trade deals in order to shape of the first world/international economic order.

> there's a difference between the US treating TikTok or WeChat differently even compared to American companies vs the fact that China just has an entirely different legal framework.

This is pure propaganda. There is absolutely no difference. Both steal your data, both will cause you trouble at border control ( see obligation to give your phone for searching at US border some years ago).

Ah yes, overzealous intelligence agencies exist (who can be and do get sued) and borders exist, therefore there’s “absolutely no difference” between US and Chinese law.

All global superpowers sometimes ban cartoon characters for hurting their leaders’ feelings! No differences.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-40627855

The claim there is absolutely no difference is self-evidently untrue. There’s no member of the CCP who would claim such a thing. The US and China are very different places with very different cultures, which gets reflected in their respective laws.

while I've heard of few incidents of devices being searched..I've never had any such issues where U.S CBP wanted to search my phone or laptop when entering the U.S.

Technically the companies are allowed to operate in China, but to do so they would need to follow the strict censorship and data sharing rules the Chinese government requires all companies to adopt. That's why, for example, Bing is available in China and Google not.

What about the requirement for a "local partner"?

> Technically the companies are allowed to operate in China

So you are saying they are not blocked by the GFW?

My impression is that's really just a technicality though. If instead of a total ban imposed on these companies, the US imposed incredibly tough rules tailored for them but that applied to "all" foreigners that made it impossible for these companies to operate, the end result would be the same

> If instead of a total ban imposed on these companies, the US imposed incredibly tough rules tailored for them but that applied to "all" foreigners that made it impossible for these companies to operate, the end result would be the same

Or TikTok would change their business to operate within the limits of the new regulation, which is something that cannot happen with an outright ban. A good compromise is to do like the EU with GDPR and not ban companies directly but still require them to comply with local privacy laws if they want to access the market. Foreign companies that don't want to do it can simply block European users (effectively self-censoring themselves).

But Chinese companies do have to comply with these rules. China cares about total surveillance more than they care about blocking foreign competitors.

American companies live and die by their users, Chinese companies live and die by the Chinese government. What if the US imposed a rule that every company operating in the US has to sign a public declaration criticizing the Tiananmen Square massacre? Not an issue for any company in the world except for the Chinese ones. Just because a rule applies to everyone equally doesn't mean that it's providing an equal playing field.

That rule would be a problem for any company operating in China, not just Chinese companies.

But not in the US. My point was to illustrate that the Chinese equivalent situation is discriminatory against foreign companies even though it applies equally to all.

> but to do so they would need to follow the strict...data sharing rules the Chinese government requires all companies to adopt.

A.K.A government surveillance and anti-privacy rules. For instance, I believe various data leaks have proved that Chinese police (down to the local level) get a literal feed of all public and private social media messages sent over Chinese apps. There's also a video floating around of some poor schmuck locked in a tiger chair by some Chinese police, being forced to apologize for talking smack about them in a private chat.

International diplomacy is not about doing what’s fair, it’s about doing what you can get away with.

Talking about some principle your opponent isn’t adhering to while violating it at the same time is common place. It’s the same tactic as when China says “how dare the US criticize our actions when they have racial issues of their own”. Of course ignoring that the China human rights violation is official government policy while the US is a policy violation and clearly rejected by the population and government.

Well, the difference is that the US is openly addressing them while China is openly denying any wrong doing.

TikTok did recently slip in automatic collection of fingerprints for your voice and face. Not that Facebook isn't doing similar, but legal or not, it may still be wise to encourage friends to not use it.

https://techcrunch.com/2021/06/03/tiktok-just-gave-itself-pe...

I really can’t stand TikTok. It sucks up so much data straight to the Chinese government, I absolutely refuse to use it. But so many good creators are starting to dabble with it, and many of my friends will send me TikTok links that I can’t open.

This is how European's feel irregardless if the app is Chinese or American. All your data gets sucked up by some foreign nation (private industry or government, doesn't really matter).

Agreed.

And make no mistake:

- it is one of my checks when I consider who I vote for

- I do complain to relevant authorities to the best of my ability

- I am willing to put more effort and more money behind it

- I am not alone

================

For everyone who agree but haven't done anything yet, feel free to take any small step, some examples:

- contact politicins and ask them (twitter, snail mail, email, phone)

- contact local consumer protection groups

- generally be vocal about it wherever it is relevant (i.e. don't be an annoying fool): in app reviews, in a constructive way in relevant discussions in forums etc

This serves two purposes: first to make sure politicians and authorites know this is a pain point.

Secondly it also makes sure app makers gets the message.

While I will probably enjoy it too much when certain big companies get their well deserved multi million or even multi billion fines I don't generally want punishment but compliance:

I just want my alarm clock and what not that I already pay a stupid monthly fee for not to try to double dip me on top of that! (Real case, hey Alarmy! Enjoy your free advertising!)

I just don't want everyone and their dog to be aware what I disease I looked up.

Basically I just want basic decency.

Then Europe should start making their own apps.

Good, the difference is your government(s) actually make laws to stop this stuff. The US doesn't seem to give a shit.

U.S. brings the software, China brings the hardware, EU brings the regulation.

What's more interesting is the number of Europeans here in the Valley building those apps.

Is it something that's discussed in Europe?

You know that TikTok is no different to the rest of them. (and does the same behaviours of any other social network collecting your data which I find as a damning violation of our privacy.) How else is that 'recommendation algorithm' supposed to work, then?

Another 'algorithm' that governs and orders what can be seen and unseen for the accounts of hundreds of millions of users again. Just like YouTube, Instagram and Twitter.

Once ByteDance changes their algorithm and the users begin to complain about it, then I will point them to this comment and say, I tried to warn them but they decided to 'silence' me instead because I am right.

We'll see soon enough.

If possible you could just scrape some of your favorite tik-tokers using something like this. https://github.com/drawrowfly/tiktok-scraper

I have been working on building my own client apps by reverse engineering existing apps' api and by really deciding what apps I really need. For example, I have the app for some convenience stores and I have realized that the only reason I use them is for the barcode that the app loads(turns out they use a library to generate the barcode buts its the same every time because its based on a customer ID).

So why not just print out the barcode onto a dogtag and ditch the app? Im trying to work my way through each app so then my phone has the bare minimum of of third party tracking. Facebook and Instagram are gonna be the real tough cookies but luckily I have reduced my usage significantly.

Wouldn’t it be easier to take a screenshot of the code in the app and just keep it in your photos?

Yes but this saves from having to take out the phone at all. Sorry I didn't include that context. If I can reduce pulling out my phone that is something I prefer. I am taking screenshots of the code in another app(that changes every time) and its annoying because i have to shuffle through photos and it still requires me to use the app. This is something I am still trying to figure out how I can do better.

It's not like you can't find better content off social media.

I blocked Instagram, Facebook, Reddit, Tik Tok, and Snapchat on my home network. Good riddance.

I have a feeling like it spiked a while ago. If I listen to my teenage daughters, they're all complaining that TikTok went downhill and it's full of creeps now.

I like Tik Tok. It's way better then any other social media out there; it doesn't have all the negativity other social media does. It's very positive, and has seemingly endless good content. I think it's likely better for a person's mental health then any other social media since it isn't fueled by negativity.

I also don't think it's data collection is any worse then any other social media's. I don't see why I should care that China has my data. I'm more scared of my own government having my data.

The negative aspect is that it's a distracting time suck and causes addictive tendencies in young people that don't have fully matured brains yet.

>I also don't think it's data collection is any worse then any other social media's. I don't see why I should care that China has my data. I'm more scared of my own government having my data.

Because China is an authoritarian regime that commits genocide against its own citizens and has done multiple other atrocious inhumane things. You should be scared.

I don't doubt your opinion...but this reads like CCP propaganda lol. As someone else mentioned....China is a human rights abusing nation state......a little different imo....but what do I know. I don't use tiktok

> It sucks up so much data straight to the Chinese government

Do you have a source for this? At least in the case of the US all user data by law must remain in the country, wouldn't surprise me if the same happened on the entirety of the EU

Seriously, does anyone have anything?

As ByteDance is headquartered in the PRC, I imagine they have to comply with whatever the CCP asks them to do. Similar to how Facebook would have to comply with a US courts subpoena for records even if it belonged to a foreign National, but worse since it’s the Party and not an independent Judiciary making such requests.

> It sucks up so much data straight to the Chinese government

Instagram Reels and YouTube Shorts are copies of TikTok, because Facebook and Google are much safer places to have our data sucked up.

I get Google because it aggregates data, but Facebook? Isn't Facebook supposed 'leaked data' actually within Facebook API Access that any big companies could get? Facebook was poorly responsible with its user data.

Many people believe disinformation spread on social media is a huge problem. Knowing this, is it really a good idea to give a CCP-controlled company direct access to the minds of our youngest generation?

It’s not and Biden Admins inaction on following through with the previous admins threat is quite a significant action that’s just not getting the press it deserves.

I don't think it's a "belief" but a fact when we have all these conspiracy theories about the vaccine floating around.

1) Imagine if the US government was able to require social media or news sites to take down posts that spread disinformation about the vaccine. We'd be at herd immunity. But alas, an uneducated opinion about the vaccine is equally as important as a scientists with decades of experience in the field. It is a strength, and weakness of freedom of speech.

2) And now imagine that a foreign government can pump misinformation about the mRNA vaccine (China and Russia have been documented to do so) and shape opinions on any topic.

"A survey found that a quarter of adults 18-39 "definitely" won't get vaccinated." https://abcnews.go.com/Health/young-adult-vaccination-rate-l...)

Good, the thought that my own country would try and block me from the one tool that allows easy communication to extended family in China is really just mindblowing.

No, china doesn't operate fairly. Yes, it sucks, and something should be done. But no, the answer isn't to turn around and punish your own citizens for it.

Wait, people were not banned from using TikTok? Why just new downloads?

What was the purpose of this?

Is there tangible, real, honest to god proof that the Chinese government is involved in using TikTok to “steal data”? Because to be honest it sounds like nationalistic nonsense to me.

Classic HN, due pedantry on backing up broad statements with sources, except for when it’s about whatever enemy is currently in the spotlight.

This story [0] covers a report that they worked with the CCP to help with the Geoocide against the Uighurs. That's not exactly what you asked for, but I think it contributed to the deeper point: if you do business in China, you give the CCP what they want.

If that's Uighur's hiding in cellars or a senator's affair before (s)he votes on tariffs or whatever, it doesn't really make a difference.

Don't get me wrong, the NSA are playing the same "game" and have been caught a lot more often.

[0] https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/tiktok-s-owner-is-helping-...

Thank you for not responding with hostility. I do believe the goals of the Chinese government are nefarious, I mean this quote is pure insanity:

> Together with the Public Security Bureau, Huawei will unlock a new era of smart policing and help build a safer, smarter society

Maybe moves will be made in the future and I’ll look dumb for questioning this. In the mean time I guess I’ll go back to work so that I can pay Uncle Sam to perpetuate the glorious US war machine.

Most of your tax money goes to healthcare and social security. For 2020 the HHS alone is 2x the defense budget. https://www.thebalance.com/fy-2020-federal-budget-summary-of...

2019 budget so you can exclude Corona and still see it's mostly health programs and social security - https://www.cbo.gov/publication/56324

Really embarrassing and shortsighted decision.. As a person whose views align with Sanders, I chose to vote for Trump in 2020 since he's the first world leader to do something meaningful to stand up to China (and quite frankly, Biden had a horrendous China record throughout his political career). I had been cautiously optimistic about the Biden administration when they didn't immediately return to kowtowing to China like the Obama/Biden administration (I even became hopeful that I could finally vote for a democrat again), but I guess it was just a matter of time before he would shoot us in the foot by "playing by the rules" against an enemy that will cheat at every turn.

The democratic approach works great when you're dealing with honest and trustworthy nations that share similar goals and hopes for the future.. but the moment you're dealing with authoritarian dictatorships then the system will fall apart.. it wasn't a big problem before when the authoritarian countries were weak and unable to compete, but we've reached a point where China can easily copy pretty much everything the developed nations are capable of - now add lower wages, 996 work hours, forced labor, support from a government that won't hesitate for a second to block their competitors from entering their billion+ users market, a government that will threaten to do x and y if the country doesn't do z to support their company, etc.

Can't say I'm surprised to see the Biden admin go this route. For all of Trump's faults at least he tried to stand up to the CCP. Biden folds like a cheap suit when confronted with any tough stance against the Russians or Chinese.

What did Trump do against Russia?

Did I say Trump did anything against Russia? It helps that his son didn't receive $3.5M from some Russian billionaire...

So nice of Biden to give Putin a free pass on the pipeline attack too. I'm sure Putin is just shaking in his boots from that stare down during their handshake.

So in your words Trump folded like a cheap suit against the Russians.

Sure and so did Biden. So in your own words Biden is every bit a shit as Trump?

Happy now? Trump isn't president anymore so move on and start holding the current admin accountable for their obvious failures.

I agree Biden is not against Russia or China.

It was absolutely enraging to see politicians try to ban software. The American competitive advantage is the ability to start a business.

I want the entire world making software for US citizens. I want US developers to compete with the rest of the world.

You know who is going to struggle competing? China and Europe due to difficulty dealing with governments. Sure you get an occasional piece of software from these countries, but there's a reason FAANGM exists.

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