Comment by throwaway111999 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by throwaway111999 | Hacker News Reader

throwaway111999

I'm terrified of interacting with female coworkers.

I don't have a "-ist" bone in my body. When I review code, I only see the code and not the person that wrote it. When I pick a team, I look at engineering ability and nothing else. I abhor discriminatory behavior and would be the first to put my career on the line to defend someone getting discriminated against. And of course I keep anything sexual FAR FAR FAAAR outside of work.

Sometimes I write "guys" in chat (out of habit) and get a rush of anxiety. Did I offend someone? Should I correct it? If I correct it, will it make it more obvious? What if I get called out for using that word? How should I respond without making myself look like a goon?

I've stopped giving negative feedback. It started when I needed to give negative feedback to a female engineer who wasn't doing well. I was terrified of being perceived as sexist so I just gave neutral/positive feedback to protect myself. I didn't want it to look bad so I did the same for male coworkers. Now I just give everyone positive feedback all the time. Yea, it looks like I'm a doormat or just dumb but it's worth the sense of safety I feel.

I never EVER make jokes at work. I don't tell stories about my life. I certainly don't share political opinions. I don't talk about my hobbies because those might (at some point, not now) be correlated with something "-ist". Not worth the risk.

I obviously don't post on social media. I do intend to start at some point, but everything I post will go through a heavy handed PR filter. I'm thinking it'll all be positive/supportive. No complaining, no calling anyone out, no responding to politicians or popular figures, and definitely never supporting anyone that I don't know personally.

It's exhausting but at least it's opt-in. I just want a calm day to day life.

It's funny because I behave entirely the opposite. I'm as transparent and open as possible. I'm just myself and no way I can live hiding my own personality because of other people's feelings.

If the people around me don't like it or my work won't accept it then I simply move to new friends/work where my "character" is understood or accepted.

I find similarities in this with some standup comedy I do & the group of friends I found there. They accept my "naughtier" funny side because we all talk shit about everything and about each other. We're constantly roasting each other and we all love it. Politics & drama is welcome here!

Surely I can't bring the same character into an office meeting but you'll easily see where the line is - no need to go completely all out as you are.

You wouldn't talk to your grandma about your sex life the same way you talk about it with your buddies.

Adapt and move on, but maybe no need to hide your true self.

Good! Nobody actually wants you to do the other thing that you're already not doing. Keep your head down. Be positive. Keep trying to move the needle: but in a neutral, inoffensive way. And everything will get better.

Or you know, just don't be a creep and treat women like human beings and you'll be fine?

If you're giving negative feedback because they did something wrong/substandard work, you document it and move on. If there are questions later, you refer back. I've literally never had this be a problem.

I'm not sure why talking about your personal life would be grounds for issues unless you decided to talk about your bedroom, politics, or religion. "I went hiking on X trail this weekend, it was pretty cool" isn't going to get you called into HR.

> Or you know, just don't be a creep and treat women like human beings and you'll be fine?

You don't understand.

When I interact with people, I don't see race/color/age/sex. I'm just focused on the problem at hand. I also have a deep compassion for people in general.

What I'm worried about is saying or doing the wrong thing due to a lapse in judgement in the moment.

I'll give you an example. I love fashion. At a previous company it was all guys. When a guy came to work and was wearing new shoes, I'd notice, and compliment the shoes. Or if they were wearing a new shirt I might say that it "brings out your X". I'm straight so there's nothing sexual here. I just think fashion is cool. It's a hobby of mine.

Making any comments about female coworker fashion terrifies me. What if I say something that's perceived as a sexual advance? Don't forget that men often disguise sexual advances as seemingly innocent compliments. It's a big gray area.

> If you're giving negative feedback because they did something wrong/substandard work, you document it and move on. If there are questions later, you refer back. I've literally never had this be a problem.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my post, but my point is that I have an irrational fear.

I'd much rather sacrifice a little bit of professional perception of skill to not mess around in an area I'm very paranoid about.

> I'm not sure why talking about your personal life would be grounds for issues unless you decided to talk about your bedroom, politics, or religion. "I went hiking on X trail this weekend, it was pretty cool" isn't going to get you called into HR.

Irrationally, I worry that I'll get to comfortable and mention something that, to me, is obviously not "-ist" but comes off that way.

>When I interact with people, I don't see race/color/age/sex.

No offense but this is such a silly thing to say. EVERYONE sees race/age/sex. Most people also change how they interact with others based on their age/sex and that's perfectly fine (if you're basing it on race that's an issue unless you're literally in a foreign country with a different culture). I don't talk to a 2 year old girl in the same tone of voice and vocabulary that I talk to a 40 year old man. If you're treating a 2 year old and a 40 year old the same, we've probably discovered one of many problems with your interpersonal skills.

>Making any comments about female coworker fashion terrifies me.

Why? Again this is all pretty straightforward. Couple simple rules: don't stop by the same persons desk every day and compliment their fashion, that gets creepy.

"I like those earrings, they look great" - no problem.

"Hey I really like the way that shirt fits your body" - problem

>Maybe I wasn't clear in my post, but my point is that I have an irrational fear.

And my point is that you're saying you are knowingly and intentionally treating your female coworkers significantly different than your male coworkers, and that's kind of weird, and will likely lead to more issues than if you just treat them the same...

> No offense but this is such a silly thing to say. EVERYONE sees race/age/sex.

I strongly disagree here. When I'm reviewing code, I look at the code. It could be written by ANYONE. I don't ever think "this woman" or "this <religion>" when reviewing code!

> "I like those earrings, they look great" - no problem. > "Hey I really like the way that shirt fits your body" - problem

You don't see how it can be easy to accidentally state the latter? If you don't... I just don't know what else to say. A major part of fashion is accentuating or hiding parts of someone's body...

In any case, as I said, I acknowledge that it's an irrational fear and I'd just rather not take the risk.

I think your main POV here is that if your heart is in the right place then everything will be fine. I just hard disagree with that.

> And my point is that you're saying you are knowingly and intentionally treating your female coworkers significantly different than your male coworkers, and that's kind of weird, and will likely lead to more issues than if you just treat them the same...

No, I treat them both equally but I avoid expressing any opinion whatsoever becomes I'm worried about being perceived otherwise.

I don't give female coworkers critical reviews, but I don't give male coworkers bad reviews either.

What I'm saying is that I very strategically avoid ANY situation where my I can express an opinion that MAY be perceived as "-ist".

In other words, think of any situation where intent is a major factor.

Example: A very veeerrrry nit picky code review. Some people are nit picky about every single thing to every single person. That's fine. But if someone is nit picky ONLY to female coworkers then that's a problem.

Intent is what matters there. My (again, irrational) fear is that my intent my get mis-read due to bad luck. My code reviews can be inconsistent sometimes. Some days I might point something out that I wouldn't on other days. Just human error. See what I mean?

>I strongly disagree here. When I'm reviewing code, I look at the code. It could be written by ANYONE. I don't ever think "this woman" or "this <religion>" when reviewing code!

But that's not what you said. And it's not really the point either way, because we're talking about providing feedback on the code, which was written by a person with an age and a race and a gender. And when you sit down with that person to provide feedback, you see their race, age, and gender. Saying you don't is just silly.

>You don't see how it can be easy to accidentally state the latter?

I really don't.

>I think your main POV here is that if your heart is in the right place then everything will be fine. I just hard disagree with that.

I don't think and didn't state that at all and would never give anyone such absurd advice. I could go on with more examples for you:

I really like those shoes. - perfectly fine

Those shoes make your legs look great. - don't do this

That skirt is cute. - Yes

That skirt makes your butt look amazing - don't do this

I honestly can't tell if you created the throwaway for entertainment or having a real conversation but at this point I'm leaning towards the former because I genuinely don't believe you're confused about how to make an appropriate vs. inappropriate comment to a coworker. It doesn't really matter if they're male or female, if you tell someone that an outfit makes their body look X - you're probably going to get in trouble unless you happen to be good friends outside of work.

>No, I treat them both equally but I avoid expressing any opinion whatsoever becomes I'm worried about being perceived otherwise.

It doesn't really matter how you're perceived. If you document your reviews, and you do it fairly, the work will speak for itself. It has nothing to do with male vs. female. I've done this for decades, someone will inevitably accuse you of a bias, and you refer back to your documentation, notes, and the original work. They can mis-read all they want, the only thing HR cares about is a defensible position for your feedback.

> But that's not what you said. And it's not really the point either way, because we're talking about providing feedback on the code, which was written by a person with an age and a race and a gender. And when you sit down with that person to provide feedback, you see their race, age, and gender. Saying you don't is just silly.

Maybe you and I mean different things when we say "see age/etc". Yours is probably more correct semantically, but when I say "see" I mean specifically adjusting my code review depending on age/etc. When I say I don't "see age/etc" I just mean that it doesn't influence how I evaluate someone's work professionally.

> I honestly can't tell if you created the throwaway for entertainment or having a real conversation but at this point I'm leaning towards the former because I genuinely don't believe you're confused about how to make an appropriate vs. inappropriate comment to a coworker. It doesn't really matter if they're male or female, if you tell someone that an outfit makes their body look X - you're probably going to get in trouble unless you happen to be good friends outside of work.

Your mildly toxic responses are a great reason why I don't engage on this subject matter at all (until now). And the reason why I created a throwaway account.

You seem to be very sure about yourself and how everyone else should act. You also seem to lack any compassion by default for what people struggle with. Honestly, your responses have even further convinced me that my approach is the correct one (for my own good/safety/etc).

My comment was me genuinely opening up. It's something I struggle with internally. If you work with me, you'd never know it.

> It doesn't really matter how you're perceived. If you document your reviews, and you do it fairly, the work will speak for itself. It has nothing to do with male vs. female. I've done this for decades, someone will inevitably accuse you of a bias, and you refer back to your documentation, notes, and the original work. They can mis-read all they want, the only thing HR cares about is a defensible position for your feedback.

Or I can just not engage at all. What do I stand to gain from having to deal with documentation/notes/etc in those cases? In environments where critical feedback is encouraged (or even required) then all I need to do is be less critical than the most critical people. Or in other words, only provide feedback that someone else has provided in the past.

BTW, if you're wondering "how did this person get into this mindset in the first place?" then that would be a good question.

I've never been personally accused of anything like this.

But... I've looked at past incidents both in the public light and privately among friends and worried that I might have inadvertently screwed up.

For example, the whole PyCon dongle joke incident. This is a case where a couple of guys were being immature and made some sexual joke about dongles. A woman in front of them overheard it, snapped their picture, posted it on Twitter, and they got fired (at least one posted an apology IIRC). Could I have made a dongle joke at a social event in my early 20s? You bet I could have! Esp. because, as an introvert programmer, these kind of events were a great place for me to socialize (vs bars, clubs, etc).

I've witnessed people get called out for much much less. I just don't ever want to be on that side of the table.

"Or you know, just don't be a creep and treat women like human beings and you'll be fine?"

Tell that to Alex Reid.

> don't be a creep and treat women like human beings and you'll be fine?

You may have your best intentions about women and still slip. Like accidentally calling people "guys" which is considered offensive now.

Everyone does tons of "mistakes" like that. Sometimes it is forgiven, sometimes it is now.

Whether it is forgiven or not often depends not on the exact words or tone of your voice, but on the perception of you. If you are handsome, the reaction will be a giggle. If you not so good, exactly the same words can be considered offensive. https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1663485-hello-human-resource...

The problem is that people gets offended too easily nowadays.

And you advice can be translated as "just be successful young and handsome".

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