I question though why choose Bitcoin? I guess a lot of people support it. But it is far from stable, so no one in the right mind, especially poor people should hold significant Bitcoins because it is speculative rather than stable.
I guess stable coins do not have the wide acceptance that bitcoin has? Why not USDC or similar to solve the money transfer problem?
Your respond suggest that Bitcoin is going to the moon, but that suggests you want it to stay the speculative instrument it is now. But if it is going to work in El Salvador you want it to be stable no?
The reason for high fees are the risk in sending the money across borders. Due to fraud there are risks. Bitcoin does nothing to fix this and seems to even enable more scams.
In principal maybe not but in reality, Bitcoin for international exchanges is a game-changer especially if you can keep the money in Bitcoin and spend it as the recipient.
Fees on remittances to El Salvador were up to 50% in some cases. With Bitcoin they are effectively zero.
Bitcoin fixes this.
Bitcoin eliminates counter party risk and international transfer risk. Lightning eliminates cost, latency and transaction volume limits. In every way that matters, Bitcoin via Lightning eliminates high fees and addresses all your concerns.
As for the idea that Bitcoin enables more scams, please provide citations. I am not aware of any scams introduced by Bitcoin or Lightning.
citations are a two way street buddy
Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer network that does not rely on any third party to function - hence no counter-party risk. Bitcoin operates based on rules, but has no rulers, only participants of various flavors.
Bitcoin doesn’t understand or recognize borders. There is no country-code input field in a bitcoin transaction. Bitcoin doesn’t care if you are sending Bitcoin to your friend across the street or North Korea, Iran, <insert scary nation here> - international transfer risk is non-existent for Bitcoin as Bitcoin does not recognize political borders.
Any human anywhere with a computing device and internet connectivity can create an address and transact with anyone else in the network.
Bitcoin is a censorship resistant monetary network open to all 7.5 Billion humans. No bank can compete with Bitcoin on this dimension.
People El Salvador didn't get the $1200 checks that US citizens got from printing more USD, even though they both use USD in theory. The president tried to get a deal with the IMF, but they couldn't agree on the terms, so he decided to give a choice to the people between a safe but inflating currency and a volatile / experimental but deflating currency.
Luckily there are enough market makers in both countries that transferring USD and recieving USD through the Bitcoin / Lightning network is cheaper and faster than using the traditional banking infrastructure.
I have a girlfriend in Colombia, and in addition to the 10% remittance fee she always has to go to the city from her village (1 hour bus ride) just to get money. I wish I could just send her money through Lightning network (she has internet + iPhone, so installing an app is not a problem).
"People El Salvador didn't get the $1200 checks that US citizens got from printing more USD, even though they both use USD in theory."
Are you seriously saying that 5% inflation a year, maybe a bit more worse case, is bad compared to Bitcoin just lost 40% of its value in the last 2 months? Oh no, better not use USD then and switch to Bitcoin!
Maybe we need a stable coin that is a mix of the major currencies if you are against USD in particular? It could be pegged to some ratio of Chinese, US, Euro (and UK or Japanese?) dollars? This would be quite nice and stable.
People in the US can just buy S&P stock in their 401K to defend against it, but most people in the world don't have that privilege.
I agree that volatility of bitcoin is really hard to stomach (I have been through 85% downturns and it sucked, and people have made fun of me many times, I just got used to it). But there are enough people who have so bad pension systems in the world, that they see the huge volatility of bitcoin as a better option than trusting their government.
Zoom out further and USD looks even less attractive as a store of value. In 1933 $20usd bought 1oz of gold. Today it would take $2000usd/oz of gold, netting out to a 100x decrease in purchasing power in ~90 years. Bitcoin meanwhile has grown in purchasing power by 200% per year on average since inception.
What El Salvador has done is brilliant.
Citizens can chose between a short-term stable unit of account that loses most of its value over a long time period (USD) or a short-term volatile but long term deflationary currency designed to increase purchasing power over the long-term (BTC).
Remember that no traditional bank in the world will ever again pay you sufficient interest on savings to preserve your purchasing power over time - not one. Fiat is a terrible long-term store of value.
Bitcoin gives users the option to fix this.
Bitcoin is not "fixing" anything here, a currency that deflates forever is a dumb idea.
Why is is a good thing that widows, orphans, those living in poverty or on a fixed income have no way to save without having to Risk their principal?
The only ones who benefit from inflationary fiat currencies are those closest to the new spending - via the Cantillon effect - namely bankers, politicians and their friends in the military industrial complex.
Some cryptocurrencies may (in some cases, based on past performance) be good on average as long term stores of value, but even those that are good at this are extremely volatile assets, much more so than, say, blue-chip stocks. So they certainly don’t solve any problem of “you need exposure to volatile assets to not lose value of savings” that you might imagine exists.
> Why is is a good thing that widows, orphans, those living in poverty or on a fixed income have no way to save without having to Rick their principal?
People without surplus income have no way to save by definition, with or without risking their income. That people with surplus income need to participate in wealth generation to recurve additional wealth from storage of their surplus income is obviously a feature.
This is a straw man. The argument was not for some cryptocurrency.
It was for Bitcoin. Bitcoin alone has the potential to become the reserve currency of the internet.
It is the only crypto designed from the ground up to withstand attacks from nation states. Bitcoin is the scarcest asset ever created. It is the most decentralized and censorship resistant, and it is secured by the most powerful super-computer in the world.
Therefore it isn't just about past performance, but rather past performance combined with a fundamental analysis of the unique properties of Bitcoin that make it the best performing asset in the history of assets over it's lifetime.
Bitcoin is a unique snowflake. If you cannot tell the difference between Bitcoin and other cryptos you ARE missing the point.
> People without surplus income have no way to save by definition
Poor or rich, most people can find a way to save some of their income for the future. It may not be much to you but giving them the option to access a store of value that grows on average at 200% per year is a revolution for these folks who often have fewer options to grow savings.
You are cherry-picking poor people to suit your argument. Not all poor people have zero surplus income.
Some simply have too little or too insecure surplus income to escape their plight. I for one applaud giving these people more choices for a better life.
This has got to be the laziest rebuttal - think of the orphans!
Those living in poverty, definitionally, have less money than the not-impoverished. A deflationary currency gives value proportional to whomever is holding it. There is no incentive to loan money, as holding this deflationary currency is risk free growth.
Certainly, the government printing fiat could direct those funds in undesirable or corrupt ways, but this is possible whether the fiat currency is deflating or inflating. A currency that is always deflating will be subject to the tyranny of wealth holders, who now have no incentive to put any of that wealth back into the economy, absent a wealth tax or something.
Fiat already has momentum, it can purchase goods and services, which can be used to create value. It can pay taxes. It does not also need to be self-compounding through deflation.
A deflationary currency does not maybe benefit the already wealthy, it directly imparts "real value" proportional to held currency. If you have ideas for a deflationary system that solves this, through wealth taxes or something, I am all ears.
> somehow I don't need to hesitate which one (inflationary, deflationary) I'd rather choose
Because relative to most people, you are wealthy! How are young people supposed to find work in a deflationary system?
I'm sorry you felt my argument to be lazy. Allow me to elaborate. Widows and orphans is a common trope in finance that refers to the most vulnerable members of society, those without the pricing power to keep up with inflation. Typically it means those on a fixed income such as pensioners. These 'widows and orphans' are the worst hit by inflation since high earners can pressure employers for a raise or switch jobs for more pay while the idle rich can keep their assets in inflation-resistant holdings. Pensioners suffer disproportionately - that was my point.
The modern monetary system, which is inflationary, is obviously biased towards wealth holders. This does not imply that a deflationary system would better help the poor and downtrodden. Deflation imparts wealth directly to holders of the currency, directly proportional to the quantity of currency held. Money velocity goes towards 0 as the idle rich lose all incentive to do anything but hold it and watch their purchasing power increase relative to everyone less rich.
You seem to be stuck on the word orphans, let’s use ‘those on a fixed income’ instead.
If you can get past the word orphans, may I ask you to address the core point of my argument?
My questions are:
Why must widows or orphans or anyone have a fixed income?
What is the problem with the government providing subsistence incomes indexed to inflation and letting wealtholders fortunes get inflated away?
How does deflation, which proportionally rewards holders of currency, help those with a fixed income more than inflationary handouts?
There is nothing wrong with the idea except it does not exist. Show me a country where governments provide subsistence income indexed to the official inflation rate, let alone the real rate of inflation. Show me a gov that allows minimum wage to increase at anything approaching inflation. Or show me a traditional bank account that will allow them to save at a rate that keeps up with inflation - It doesn’t exist.
> and letting wealtholders fortunes get inflated away?
and show me a wealtholder who’s fortune is held in cash instead of scarce assets so as to be inflated away - doesn’t exist.
> How does deflation, which proportionally rewards holders of currency, help those with a fixed income more than inflationary handouts?
Watch the bottom 70% of El Salvador’s citizens over the next decade for a real world example. They now get a decentralized savings account denominated in a currency growing at 200% y/y instead of one that is constantly being debased (USD printed 50% of all dollars ever created during the pandemic) - except for crypto no bank account will ever again pay enough interest to keep up with inflation.
No, my argument has always been that inflation disproportionately hurts the poor more than the rich.
You are either misinterpreting my words or intentionally being misleading. Again the ‘widows and orphans’ or those on a fixed income references were simply examples. My argument applies to those on low incomes, middle income or even high incomes.
Only those wealthy enough to live entirely off investments have the potential to suffer a little less from inflation.
I say suffer a little less because even the idle rich suffer from currency debasement - just less than this who are less well off.
Either you don't understand what volatility means, or you think volatility only matters when it's towards the down position. Either way, you're wrong.
Volatility in a currency is not a good thing. Even if some people are making money, other people are losing money due to the volatility. Value stability should be one of the top goals for any currency.
Again, zoom out and the picture looks different.
The US Dollar loses approximately 100% of it’s value per century.
Bitcoin maintains or increases its purchasing power by many orders of magnitude per decade.
While the market rate on offer for Bitcoin at a given moment fluctuates, sometimes wildly, over a multi-year period the value always tends to go up.
This is by design as Bitcoin is the scarcest asset ever invented - giving it the property of hard money which unlike fiat is immune from debasement.
> Value stability should be one of the top goals for any currency.
Per my comment above the US dollar’s value is not stable. It falls by ~100% per century and because of the Fed’s 80 year long policy of continuous debasement the value of US dollars will never be stable over time and will always go down.
By contrast, while Bitcoin is volatile today, as it matures in its price discovery Bitcoin is likely to become more and more stable (read less volatile) in the future.