Curcumin: A bioavailable blocker of TNF and other pro-inflammatory biomarkers (2013) | Hacker News Reader

Curcumin: A bioavailable blocker of TNF and other pro-inflammatory biomarkers (2013)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

19 points_haoa45 comments

The first author of linked paper is (in)famous for being highly prolific and having a large number of retractions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharat_Aggarwal#Scientific_mis...

http://retractiondatabase.org/RetractionSearch.aspx?AspxAuto...

A more recent skeptical review of curcumin (https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.jmedchem.6b00975) labels it an "invalid metabolic panacea" and a "pan-assay interference compound", arguing that it has properties that lead to a lot of false positives in initial activity screening that don't pan out:

    No double-blinded, placebo controlled clinical trial of curcumin has been successful.

Beware that curcurmin supplements can have high lead levels due to spiking with lead chromate for coloring high up in the supply chain. It's why I won't take it unless I can find a reliable brand that specifically tests for it.

If you do take it, it's good to take with piperine (or just black pepper) for bioavailability.

Have any recommendations?

Unfortunately, no, although I didn't do a very exhaustive search.

I was searching around on the subject and came across https://nootropicsdepot.com/longvida-curcumin-capsules/ via Reddit which claims to do testing on their products with an in-house lab: https://nootropicsdepot.com/in-house-analytical-laboratory/. Lead is mentioned but I don't know if lead chromate would be excluded from such a test.

Looks more legitimate than most simple resellers but it could just be good marketing.

FYI longvida is a brand name from a third party (Verdure Sciences), and ND is the reseller that claims to own and operate an internal testing lab.

Any links or brands that provide this information?

Does powdered turmeric have the same issue? My parents eat loads of that stuff.

Unfortunately yes: https://news.stanford.edu/2019/09/24/lead-found-turmeric/

Though this article says it is specific to Bangladesh.

This one covers Boston markets (figure 1):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5415259

e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21069437

On this topic: for anyone generally concerned about their heavy metal levels, hit the sauna & sweat'em out.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312275/

Huh, fascinating. Apparently sauna use is associated with less heart disease risk too.

As someone who tends not to sweat much (despite exercising), maybe I’ll consider this.

What does one…..do in a spa, if not going with friends? Sit and contemplate?

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/sauna-use-linked-longer-...

Research isn’t sufficient yet, largely due to lack of random data, but saunas appear to be very good for people. At least, those who are healthy enough to use them already.

There’s no data I know of showing that healthy people shouldn’t use them. There is data showing that people with a sauna habit typically live healthier lives. The tricky part is, do healthier people develop the habit, or does the habit make them healthy?

Anyone read about the impact on male fertility due to the heat exposure? I've heard about it in passing but don't know if it's a real risk.

Yeah heat definitely reduces sperm counts. One study found it reversed at six months.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23411620/

Is this research not considered sufficient?

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...

I think it’s great, but I’d like to see results from more participants in more places. Most of this research originates in Scandinavia, which doesn’t invalidate it at all in itself, but I do wonder if it’s randomized enough.

The results from this study were incredible though. Kind of makes you want to hop in the sauna!

I always like to focus on deep breathing in the spa. I have pretty bad allergies, so it's a glorious experience for me. But yeah, none of my friends like the heat so it's just quiet contemplation time.

On lead: I think that’s true of a lot of spices.

On black pepper: sure, but curcumin like Meriva absorbs even better. Meriva is sort of like the creapure (aka German creatine) of curcumin.

On a brand to use/look at: I like solaray/jarrow/now. Jarrow meriva is what I use and they claim to test all products for heavy metals, but dont have COA (certificates of analysis) readily available so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

For a counterpoint, read Derek Lowe’s “Curcumin Will Waste Your Time” about all of the issues with Curcumin research: https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2017/01/12/cu... It’s also worth noting that Curcumin has been trialed for several conditions with no significant positive outcomes that I’m aware of.

I think the truth falls somewhere in the middle. Curcumin isn’t the broad-acting wonder drug that some of these articles claim. However, it doesn’t appear to be completely inert, either.

Be careful with marketing material from supplement vendors that focuses only on the positives. It’s not hard to find reports of Curcumin having various vague negative effects like reducing libido (apparently reverses several days after cessation) and other hard to pin down side effects.

Finally, it’s important to keep in mind that not all inflammation is bad. Inflammatory signaling plays an important role in many biological processes and it is entirely possible to overdue it with anti-inflammatories in ways that become counterproductive.

I've tried curcumin. I wasn't impressed. It did little or nothing for me.

From what I am reading, this seems to be an approach that treats symptoms, not cause(s). I think it would be better to ask "What is causing the inflammation?"

Trying to control inflammation without knowing why it exists potentially makes things worse in the long run, even if it provides relief in the short run. This is the fundamental flaw with most medicines: We trade short-term gains for long-term costs, hand wave off the long terms costs and doctors get credit for "curing" your problem short term and wash their hands of long-term side effects, often chalking it up to the underlying condition for which you were nominally being treated.

I frankly disagree that antiinflammatory drugs having "long term costs". I'd be very interested if you have a paper to back that claim up. A couple decades ago it was common for rheumatic patients to end up in wheelchairs. Today that's very uncommon. I agree that most antirheumatic drugs, and most drugs in general, treat the symptoms rather than provide an outright cure. But that's enough to drastically reduce disease severity and increase quality of life. Actual cures might be ideal but we are far from there research-wise - at least for most rheumatic conditions.

Acute inflammation as the result of an injury isn't something that should be suppressed. We now understand that it should be allowed to persist as part of the healing process, so long as it isn't causing other serious problems.

Persistent, chronic inflammation is another thing altogether.

Wait, really? You're not supposed to ice or take NSAIDs after an injury?

Not doubting, just wondering when this changed and if other people have been following this advice.

Icing (and cold therapy in general) has been pretty thoroughly debunked now except for some very limited, specific scenarios. It might feel good, but there's no reliable evidence that it actually helps with long-term recovery or healing. "Good to Go" by Christie Aschwanden contains a great summary of icing (and other athletic recovery modalities).

https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393357714

NSAIDs can inhibit certain types of tissue healing. Some people eat them like candy because they're available OTC but the side effects can be significant.

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysio...

https://academic.oup.com/ptj/article/97/8/807/3826991

Some more information that's a bit more accessible to the layperson - https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/21/well/move/exercise-icing-...

TLDR, inflammation response is part of healing and icing limits that.

> The major side effects of NSAIDs are related to their effects on the stomach and bowels (gastrointestinal system). Some 10% to 50% of patients are unable to tolerate treatment with NSAIDs because of side effects, including abdominal pain, diarrhea, and upset stomach. Approximately 15% of patients on long-term treatment with NSAIDs develop a peptic ulcer (ulceration of the stomach or duodenum). Even though many of these patients with ulcers do not have symptoms and are unaware of their ulcers, they are at risk of developing serious ulcer complications, such as bleeding or perforation of the stomach.

This is for a lay audience, but it's not remotely controversial: https://www.medicinenet.com/nonsteroidal_anti-inflammatory_d...

Fair point, my statement was too general. NSAID indeed shouldn't be used willy nilly. The same goes for cortisone and long term use. My point should have specifically referred to biologicals such as anti-TNF and other anti-cytokine treatments.

Did you take it with something like piperine to enhance absorption?

No.

Then it might be worth another attempt.

My condition is well controlled. I'm fine.

I only answered your question for your edification. As a courtesy, on the assumption that you are seeking answers for yourself in an imperfect world where doctors aren't always as helpful as we would like.

Okay. Share experiential anecdotes online makes it an easier world to navigate. We don't always speak at this level of abstraction, but i think this is an implicit understanding among some subset of experience-sharers/recommenders.

e.g. Bottom line: I've generally seen many who have no response from curcumin without it paired with an absorption enhancer. This is information anyone reading may find helpful.

I haven't found turmeric effective as an anti-inflammatory. But it is an excellent blood cleanser and I've used it for that, without requiring any kind of enhancer to get what I needed out of it.

It's possible that it helps with brain fog for you because it's a blood cleanser, not because it's an anti-inflammatory. The blood brain barrier and separate lymph clearing system for the brain present challenges if your health is impacting brain function.

Understanding the exact reason it helps matters for trying to effectively make progress with your condition though misunderstanding the exact mechanism doesn't mean it won't work. It will just interfere with getting the most out of it and with finding effective substitutes.

Your observation that you need an absorption enhancer is often true for natural treatments. That's one of the chief things modern medicine does well -- delivers an effective dose in a simple to use form that requires minimal skill or comprehension from the patient.

Best of luck with your search for healing answers.

This take ignores the fact that frequently the underlying condition is known, it just doesn't have any cure known to science.

You've already been given the example of rheumatoid arthritis - another one is Crohn's, where "treating the symptoms" with anti-inflammatory treatments like infliximab or even just common-or-garden steroids vastly improves patient's quality of life. You can't tell these people to hold out until the researchers figure out how to cure the underlying condition, because that means consigning them to a life of painful intestinal scarring, blockages, fistulas, and ultimately surgery up to and including bowel resection.

You can't tell these people to hold out until the researchers figure out how to cure the underlying condition

Nowhere have I recommended this or implied this. At all.

Well, that is the implication I took away from your comment - I've re-read it, and I'm still getting that from the part where you talk about short-term gains and long-term costs.

Maybe it's just my different life experiences, but when I think about anti-inflammatory treatments I see the balancing of long-term gains versus long-term costs. Indeed the short-term effects of steroids are pretty awful!

But my comment isn't about individuals trying to manage their own health as best they can. It's about what kinds of questions researchers ideally should be asking.

Those are wholly different topics.

I think "I think it would be better to ask "What is causing the inflammation?" reads as if it is referring to the diagnostic process.

At any rate, I believe we need to be researching both anti-inflammatory treatments and treatments for the underlying causes: we have no way of knowing whether a treatment for one of these illnesses is 9 years away or 90, and in the meantime advances in anti-inflammatory treatments are providing real benefits.

Also see this more recent randomized controlled trial study of a combination therapy for COVID-19 using honey and black cumin. It appears to be effective but the article is still in pre-print status and I don't think the results have been reproduced.

Honey and Nigella sativa against COVID-19 in Pakistan (HNS-COVID-PK): A multi-center placebo-controlled randomized clinical trial Sohaib Ashraf, et al. medRxiv 2020.10.30.20217364; doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.10.30.20217364

As someone who has been on Humira for 4 years, I find this infuriating. Yeah, it’s expensive (this is more about US pharmaceutical licensing than anything else). But it works.

Biologics are wonder drugs and the thought that curcumin comes close to putting these diseases into into remission belongs on the pages of some pop science website, not HN.

Search almost any disease + curcumin on pubmed and you’ll find plenty of studies claiming impact or showing murine/in vitro results. There have yet to be any high quality in vivo human studies demonstrating anything of value.

Looking forward to the longvida Alzheimer’s trial that should be out in a few years.

Turmeric / curcumin are high in oxelates and can contribute to, or cause, kidney stones.

On a personal note, I got a kidney stone after taking a curcumin supplement for 4 months.

I don’t want to gross anyone out, but once out, it was the exact same color as the orange of the supplements.

Just one data point, YMMV

Curcumin (logevida type), for me, seems to reduce brain fog when it arises.

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