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erik998

if professional sports team have unionized players why dont we...

our egos tend to block any imagination...

https://www.nfl.com/news/full-term-sheet-of-proposed-collect...

"NFL–NFLPA Collective Bargaining Agreement 2020" https://nflpaweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/NFLPA/C...

https://nbpa.com/cba/

one day, some startups will realize it will be to their advantage to form some association to collectively bargain with a small union pool of software engineers. It will be to their benefit to compete for labor against the big FANG companies... The salaries won't be as high in the beginning but the clarity and transparency will win over new entrants into the labor pool.

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Yep. The strongest tool we have is not just discussing salaries, it’s organizing. There’s a reason why companies crack down so hard on the faintest whimper of unionizing.

Tech workers mistakenly believe that our temporarily status as the high value employees make us permanently safe from bad financial or workplace conditions. Ironically, it is at the height of our collective power when we have the most to gain from organizing and securing our livelihoods.

Does a union negotiating system make sense in a individual contributor focused profession?

I am in a union in Germany and the main result is that I earn considerably less the market rate.

This is because there is a single pay grade for every Software Engineer in the company(excluding entry level). There are no performance bonuses. Unless I get promoted into management I can look forward to the union negotiating a slightly above inflation pay rise every so often until I reach retirement.

It's a lot to swap for the workplace protections that Software engineers mostly enjoy anyway.

its different in the US. They just set a floor...

I can’t speak to how unions operate in Germany because your labor laws and norms aren’t the same as ours. Just the concept of codetermination whether or not it works as advertised would baffle the average US worker.

Many of your labor protections don’t exist here unless unions agitate for them, and I won’t even broach healthcare. In the US, unionized workers make more on average than non-union workers (link below).

Without a union, you have zero bartering power other than the threat of leaving which is what I argue above to be a very temporary power. Even then, job hopping is nowhere close to an ideal solution for a variety of reasons that I think HN readers are smart enough to fill in.

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf

True, I guess a lot of things I take for granted are only possible through union bargaining in the US.

> Does a union negotiating system make sense in a individual contributor focused profession?

Is software engineering any more of an individual contributor focused profession than acting or professional soccer. All of those people are in unions. The highest performers in those fields can essentially name their price; their union membership doesn't hold them back in that regard. On the other hand, soccer players that pick up a bad injury and have their career cut short are somewhat taken care of. Not-very-successful actors still get health insurance, if they work a certain amount every year.

A union doesn't have to negotiate your salary. That's just how a lot of labor unions are set up in the US. A union could just negotiate a floor on wages, conditions, or benefits.

Just look at all of the conditions that people complain about, which could be resisted if we had collective action.

Support for remote work, resistance to hotdesking (or gasp, even demanding offices), making all on-call requirements non-mandatory, a union rep who can review PIPs to ensure that they aren't deliberately impossible, and more.

Are the FAANGs not clear and transparent?

No? At least two of them had to be sued into not illegally carteling to keep wages down: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust....

just because they have bands for certain titles/w2 employees does not mean so for vendors/developers working as consultants via their own S corporations... Exceptions to HR supervision exist

Of course - that's like engaging any other supplier. Suppliers don't know what other suppliers are paid. Is that not the structure of that arrangement?

Yes it's OK and I don't decry it because I benefit from it... But the typical FTE will go on thinking the best career path is E3...E6 and along the way get PIPed when no longer needed... They will build castles in the air... But the vendor route allows a different relationship with the firm...

What I mean is most FTE don't realize the other relationship is possible and at a certain compensation level preferable... It's the ignorance of our generation when most FTE don't realize instead of some equity vesting over 4 years they might have been better off with a cash balance defined benefit plan or pension plan with the maximum contribution.

We think we know best but fail to realize it could be better. We get caught up on the LC competition but fail to distinguish an optimal plan outside of the ones presented to us.

Would a union help? I think so... Would it take lots of explaining ... yes....

I don't know about the others, but Google does not share pay bands, refresh targets, or other pay information with workers. People volunteer their information for folks who collect the results and distribute it (since this is protected action) but I wouldn't say that this is "transparent".

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