TikTok owner ByteDance sees its earnings double in 2020
bbc.com
bbc.com
I don't have it on my phone, but I truly see it as the pinnacle of the stupidly addictive social media app and it scares me because it means that Chinese companies are just as capable as us to spin the next Facebook and distribute propaganda to the next generation.
I would say that the highly tailored experience of the TikTok algorithm would make a propaganda op quite easy to detect. The algorithm is so ridiculously good, that you would instantly spot a propaganda video, or notice when your feed begins to skew from what you like to see.
Ahh, so the Guardian had some leaked moderation documents[1] implying there was an active moderation keeping them from being viewed. Buzzfeed said they did their own experiments and found no evidence that videos about Hong Kong were being removed[2].
I see no reason why both of those can't be true: if you control the algorithm, you don't need to delete anything, you can control with fine granularity how viral it's allowed to go. I guess that's a conspiracy theory, but for myself, I'm very skeptical that any media company operates in China with what most of us would call political neutrality and free speech.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-...
[2] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanhatesthis/tiktok-us...
I honestly don't know anyone that actually wants to see political content on TikTok (though, if you seek it out, you will find it.) It's simply not what the platform is for.
I wouldn't put it past tech giants in democratic nations not to tweak their algorithms to push their own political agenda, much less tech giants in non democratic nations.
It's too powerful a tool not to abuse, I know it, and you know it too.
Would you notice it if they slowly ramped it up? How would you know whether it's grassroots or planted by the CCP?
How exactly would you propagandize a stream of improv skits, or dance videos, or pet videos? Every user's feed is extremely specific and deviations, even small ones, are easy to notice.
There is. Tiktok China also got rid of all the political content because of the superior censorship algorithms.
But haven't seen that in months.
But otherwise I don't think they promote propaganda actively.
But the difference between FB/Twitter and TT is the kinds of suppression they do. TT will remove anything that might remotely offend the sensibilities of the CCP.
Otherwise, I just don't see China risking one of the most promising gems to have come out of its internet technology industry in a long time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_%28Star_Trek:_The_Nex...
[0] https://techcrunch.com/2021/06/03/tiktok-just-gave-itself-pe...
Can you say WORTH IT?
Heh.
Anxiety attack
So how long until the users get screwed (again)?
Especially when the content and algorithms itself is or can be easily manipulated or gamed.
So how long until the users get screwed (once again)?
Exactly. We've been here before haven't we?
How many more social networks do you need to join just to say the exact same thing? Of course. You're the one shilling it everywhere on this whole thread, when the news is for early 'investors' preparing for a gigantic IPO for massive returns. That's the news they want to hear.
As for the users; well who cares about them, they (Bytedance) don't care about you. As long as you keep generating great shareholder value for them it is another social network with a different internal flavour. Nothing has changed.
So I will ask again: How long until the users get screwed (once again)?
How are you expecting TikTok to "screw" its users? And what's the big deal with users just leaving the platform if this does happen? I really don't see the big issue here.
I'll put it in a very simple TikTok format for you: TikTok is just the same as any other social media platform which is fundamentally in the interests of the investors (they want to IPO with a massive return on investment); Not you or the users. Why do you think I quoted 'used' here? [0]
> How are you expecting TikTok to "screw" its users?
They already did [1][2], which is my point. Therefore, I do not have any confidence that they will change or how they are any different to other social media platforms. Yet you continue to deny such basic things like 'censorship' [3] even when another user pointed out a source [4] that included leaked information about TikTok's own suppression actions; completely debunking your vacuous claim.
> And what's the big deal with users just leaving the platform if this does happen?
That's not my problem. Another platform will just take its place and screw over their users over the interest of the investors (If they take capital).
So far with all your responses, you have provided ZERO evidence to your claims. I will ask one more time: 'How long until the users get screwed (once again)?'
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27550851
[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56815480
[2] https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/25/22301704/tiktok-92-millio...
Typical of some of the HN crowd, like yourself who create illogical and baseless comments without any evidence to support it.
Thus, your claims can easily be dismissed.
But yes, had to delete the thing a year ago to avoid addiction ... a back-handed compliment, I know.
Fun, but a complete time-sink ...
- terribly redundant content (as in, I see multiple times the exact same content from different accounts)
- content ripped off and reposted from original creators by spam accounts
- complete destruction of the original Instagram app to try to force-feed Reels down your throat
TikTok looks so simple when you use it because everything just works. Using Reels makes you realise all the ways there are to fuck it up!
Why does every company feel the urge to copy this and also fail so badly at this
Reminds me of how people would deride Instagram for copying Snapchat stories, yet far more people probably use Instagram stories than snapchat and are perfectly satisfied with the UX despite it being a blatant copycat.
I just think that's only because "the algorithm" prioritizes shorts at the moment to try and push them and make folks even bother making them. Once YouTube starts acting neutral towards them I don't think they'll hold up.
I've never come across a short intentionally and after seeing quite a few I haven't tried to find further ones (and outside of mobile it's quite difficult to do so).
That said of course, I'm probably not in the demographic shorts plays to either.
If you don't make it easy for your users to post good content, of course you're going to make a boring app.
TikTok was built around this flow. Its community culture expects the content to be in a certain format and will self-moderate via metrics such as likes, comments, views. The UX of the app itself is built around this content. There are no distractions.
Instagram on the other hand has a very different community, with different culture and expectations. The content creators on Instagram may not be as familiar with the content that is conducive to the Reels format. The UX of Reels on insta is also an add-on feature. You're not opening instagram to interact with Reels, you have different intentions. Whereas when you open TikTok, you are there for one reason, so the app is built around that one flow.
Follow Tom Silva, Mr Barricade, Soft Pourn, Woodshopdiaries, Scott Hanselman. This will get you a bunch of interesting content. It might not be what you want, but it's definitely not makeup tutorials.
I never entered any search term and it figured out I'm into AI, startups, tennis, attack on titan...
It doesn't actively make you dumber, you make yourself dumber abusing it, and it's designed specifically for you to abuse it.
I find it fantastically stupid.
Once I saw the aggressive marketing for it in the play store I knew this was something we now have to deal with. And so we do.
Even if not, its programmers or their bosses determine what millions of users will see (and by extension think), which may change arbitrarily.
I know this may be old-school thinking but why can't we reserve the internet to utilities and non-algorithmic spoon-feeding?
Social networks isolate people by only showing them content they agree with. It’s like french kissing yourself in the mirror.
We are 9 weeks online and growing with 2k+ users. Would appreciate your intake (invite code LV005). Cheers
Liking or retweeting some police abuse video has about the same impact as liking a picture about famine in Somalia, the dopamine hit is just stronger.
FB takes a lot of heat here vs Twitter perhaps because Zuck seems creepy but Jack Dorsey detoxes for one week in Africa but Instagram were quick to take down those threatening posts with PII but I was told Twitter asked for all sorts of government ID and then auto closed all the cases saying it's all within their terms and conditions. If any social media needs to disappear I think Twitter should be first in line.
I started following people from India and it will only show me content from India.
I unfollowed everyone, and started following indian people in USA, and it started showing me content from that.
I started following people in America, and it started showing me similar content.
It wouldn't show any new trends or new/different content.
ByteDance's overwhelming revenue is from non-TikTok sources, i.e., all JinRiTouTIao, DouYin, and other minor properties. The title wants you to think it related to TikTok as it was one of the most controversial news pieces in 2020.
TikTok's financial success is still very uncertain.
ByteDance is facing a weak BIDU (note Alibaba do not have much Ads business, and Tencent has a different walled garden), while here they are facing FB & Google in US.
I would take that bet any day of the week and twice on Fridays. TikTok has a massive, growing user base with engaging content on a platform that people generally like. I find it hard to believe they would succeed so massively in their app design and recommendation algorithms and then fail at monetization, which at this point is the trivial part.
I don't know what BIDU means.
For any spectacularly failed startup, there have been ardent supporters who uttered words no less enthusiasm than yours.
When I say their future are uncertain, I mean that it's more uncertain than one might expect, based on DouYin's success in China. One evidence I raised, is that competitors here are much stronger.
Plus, you might not believe it, CCP is more friendly to big tech than US government...
Unfortunately now the copy cats like youtube shorts have me hooked and i cannot uninstall youtube because i use it for so many more things.
Is there any good reason to focus on the misuse of a technology?
It really grinds my gears to have to watch 90% of a 60 sec video to be able to replay text at the end of something else. Other social apps fail with this as well, e.g. Snapchat, Instagram.
I'm curious how intentional the design decision is, perhaps trying to maximize time spent on the app? Interesting though how FB and Twitter do not follow the design pattern.
Facebook removes what they deem 'hate speech' and some controversial things during emergencies, like minsinformation about vaccines.
TikTok actively suppresses all sorts of information.
Go ahead and put up Toks of Hong Kong protests, Tienanmen square or Uyghurs incarceration.
Mostly - this suppression is just the natural business language of Chinese owners, but it's also direct and indirect pressure from the CCP.
That's not very comparable to what Facebook is doing.
That said, it's a decent app.
On Instagram, I scroll until I hate myself. On Facebook, I used to scroll until I got frustrated. But on Tik Tok - it's a dopamine hit without the hangover.
But, I get what you mean. Tiktok isn’t focused on friends, it feels more like a content stream similar to YouTube.
If you don't "get" TikTok because your hobbies don't map well to video snippets -- stuff like makeup, art, fashion, cooking, baking, dance, inde music, cosplay, interior decorating -- don't write it off. It's basically a social media paradise for women[1]. Like the early days of Tumblr but replace gifs with videos.
[1] TikTok's format lends itself to hobbies stereotypically cultivated by women. The implication doesn't go the other way; loads of guys on TikTok. It also doesn't imply that every woman will find like it; don't @ me with logical fallacies.
4 chan greentext used to be pretty common on Reddit a decade ago, and 9gag would repost reddit content. Twitter text often gets reposted to tiktok and reddit. Tiktok videos often get reposted to Twitter or Reddit. Heck, many major 'journalism' outfits now regularly include tweets - sometimes thats even the entire content of an article. /r/AmITheAsshole or similar long-form reddit posts are regularly read to make content for youtube or podcasts.
In terms of original amateur-created content, seems the current winners of each medium are:
- short form text: twitter
- long form text: reddit
- short video: tiktok
- long video: youtube? but seems fragile
I would say Medium has taken over, here?
So I started swiping to a new video immediately every time a selfie video showed up. The selfie videos mostly show up when you first create an account. The algorithm figured out I didn't like selfies so started showing me other random content, like travel, animals, etc. Then I started liking content I liked, so the algorithm gave me more of it.
I finally have what I like and don't see any "20 year-old zeros making videos about themselves", but it took some time to set up. It's refreshing, and much more pleasurable than Facebook or Instagram which tries to show me political shares when I'm actively unfollowing politics.
I used to never get 3dprinting vids until I searched for it and watched+liked a few, and now I get lots of them.
LMAO
Those videos are literally produced by color or facial enhancement *filters*...
Not to mention the content moderation and censorship...
Even when there is strong evidence of this blatant censorship and suppression, they (TikTok fanatics) are unable to refute or argue against this fact and quickly downvote us because they have nothing to fight with.
For example, one user [0] in the comments of this post went with a baseless claim that "TikTok ended censorship." and was quickly debunked [1] in the same conversation.
If you believe them, you might as well also believe that Facebook and others 'respect your privacy'; whilst also using recommendation algorithms and graphs at the same time.
I think HN passes the threshold of being a community capable of self sustaining, and now is gradually moving into more like a reddit.
In the sense, that HN now noticeably cannot accept non-conforming or non-positive statements.
I am thinking about creating a HN copy that dont hide any comments at all. The only rule is that everyone has to share his real name and basic social identity (where you work, age etc.). I think people would be more mindful if they risk their actual reputation.
Who knows, maybe I'll build it...
If you want a truly free speech social network, consider using Gab or 4chan. Oh wait, many potential users would find the content there distasteful.
There's no perfect social network out there. The other major social networks are happy to censor too (e.g. Trump, doctors discussing COVID-19 contrary to government agencies, etc) and they're just as bad with privacy too. Actually worse (I've been personally banned from Twitter for not providing a phone number, TikTok doesn't require one).
Not saying TikTok is perfect, but the more friends I add on TikTok the less I rely on Zuckerberg's empire.
> If you want a truly free speech social network, consider using Gab or 4chan. Oh wait, many potential users would find the content there distasteful.
A 'true' 'free speech social network' also allows illegal content to be uploaded on there. Gab and 4chan censor content that is deemed illegal; thus they don't qualify for this.
I've tried both Twitter, and Gab and deleted both of my accounts there since the not only the content there was very distasteful, but they are both poor on protecting your privacy.
Disinformation and misleading content is still spreading around on their platforms and to some extent, it seems that Twitter doesn't censor some content that is actually illegal. [0] They seem to think that their community rules are above the law.
[0] https://twitter.com/mike_salter/status/1352342668370579456?l...
Honestly, TikTok is a breath of fresh air compared to every other social media platform I've used. Positive, fun, and tailored content with no doomscrolling or negativity. It's just a fantastic platform.
TikTok has built a great app, a community of creators, an audience to consume content, and relationships with advertisers to generate revenue. They have made careful design decisions to engineer how addictive it is. This is hard work, and few companies can pull it off.
ByteDance's founder is an engineer, who happened to notice the fact that automation should come into content distribution in addition to all other aspects of social and economic activities.
So he started JinRiTouTiao, pretty much a DouYin/TikTok applied to text news. The narattive is this to give an analog. The fact is that DouYin/TikTok followed JinRiTouTIao's model.
TouTIao's content, like DouYin/TikTok, are manufactured to catch the attention. With attractive/provoking/(or whatever encourages clicking) titles, like the filtered/enhanced cover photo of any DouYin/TikTok video. The content is largely nonsensical, usually a rehash of some well-known old news. Just like DouYin/TikTok, just nonsensical videos to give you some short-term surge of satisfaction. The ads are mixed together with the manufactured content, which also has the same attractive title and content. Just like DouYin/TikTok.
The thing is that ByteDance, as a new generation of Internet company, becomes more fragile than any of its predecessors. In the sense that most of key factors of its success are based on machines, which are much easier to copy than things invovled more human activities (for example, it's easy to copy a successful anime, to make it successful, but it's much harder to copy the idea of a motion picture with actors and make it successful).
You can imagine someday, another startup, happen to invented a new AI that can generate content, whoola, ByteDance would be crumbling. If the founder would be as convicted as Mark Zuckberg, ByteDance would be killed in a few years...
> "ByteDance also saw its annual gross profit rise by 93% to to $19bn, while it recorded a net loss of $45bn for the same period."
"The net loss was attributed to a one-off accounting adjustment and not related to the company's operations."
I don’t see Facebook ever building something as cool.
I don't have it installed, but when someone links me to a specific clip, it won't let me look at other clips without installing it. What am I doing wrong?
Musical.ly has been around since 2014, steadily accumulating more users. So it isn't like TikTok just blew up out of nowhere either.
I don't use TikTok, but a few times I've seen compilations of TikTok on YouTube, and the above description certainly matched what I saw. Also, the compilations show people who are overwhelmingly white. Is what I saw representative? Are they representative in the US, and maybe people in other places see something different? (Edit: And I see the appeal of TikTok, nice dopamine hits without any cost.)
Those policies, if they exist, seem unhealthy for kids and for society: Lots of kids in the world have cell phones, but nly a small portion of the world would qualify for success on TikTok, and they are qualified by their money (and possibly ethnicity). It says to the vast majority who are poorer that you aren't part of society and no matter how good your video is, you can't qualify. It also would hide from the rich kids the vast reality of life, and that there is nothing threatening about poverty and poor people, and people who don't look like you.
Was this controlled in some effective way? Seems plausible that humans like looking at wealth, and so wealthy people tend to get more likes. It's like crowdsourced tabloids.
> Also, the compilations show people who are overwhelmingly white
I think that depends a lot on what filter bubble you get sorted into. Plant/science/compsi/engineering/lefist sections where I tend to hit like feel pretty diverse. The default 'prankbro/dance/thirsttrap/wealth porn' areas do seem predominantly white though.
According to the article, yes. Human curators were instructed on that policy. I don't remember how/if it was implemented in algorithms, but per the article, humans controlled who succeeded.
To prevent it you want to mess with "natural" algorythms so that you can teach the people what to want, and that way lies dystopia. The better your intentions the more horrible the result.
It's not a conspiracy, but a documented fact based on interviews with TikTok employees, etc. In fact, I'm not sure TikTok really denied it, but it was awhile ago.
YouTube not allowing copyrighted music is insane to me. Just give the label a large fraction of the revenue from the watch time during the time that their music was playing. How hard can it be to negotiate this arrangement?
Some rights holders are especially aggressive, and proactively search for infringing material, so this method isn't foolproof; if they manually flag it, the audio will be stripped from the video. But for the cases where the rights holders are happy to use automatic strikes, the workaround still works.
Youtube does exactly this. Upload music owned by labels that Youtube has a deal with and they'll get revenue.
There's tons of them today, they've been cranking the ad load hard. I see like Nike and the like all the time. It might be they only show ads to users who use regularly.
Like every other social network.