Saving books by keeping them expensive (2011) | Hacker News Reader

Saving books by keeping them expensive (2011)

themillions.com

49 pointsTheTrotters42 comments

Related fact: Germany was one of the last countries to adopt copyright laws, and even then they were pretty lax[0]. Historians believe that this legal situation was one the factors behind the rise in Germany’s industrial prowess.

In a way, Germany became a industrial powerhouse because _it had cheap books_.

[0]: Arsene Lupin’s adventures with Sherlock Holmes were published as “Herlock Sholmes” everywhere except Germany for eg.

Germany was also the last country that formed, by far. Not that that even matters because copyright laws did exist before that. The difference is that the "Deutsche Bund" had copyright only last for ten years, starting with the publication of a work. Though, it changed in 1845 to lifetime + 30 years. But, just like in all the other countries, copyright only applied on a national level. International copyright became a proper thing in 1886 with the Berne Convention. Before that, the British could easily copy French or German works for instance.

Anyway, so basically all countries were on an even playing field. Industrialization in the German states also only really kicked off after the revolution of 1848/49, so that was after the copyright version which lasted a long time came into effect. Of course, industrialization then switched into high gear after the formation of Germany in 1871. In the end, something that gentleman11 mentioned is of actual importance here: "My impression was that Germany was an industrial powerhouse because of their fragmented states prior to unification, leading to needing a hard work ethic to get by." Having a hyper-competitive national market and the means to transport the wares into all corners of the market really fuels innovation. It was the case back then just as it is the case now.

It would be an impressive case study but it would take a lot of evidence to prove. My impression was that Germany was an industrial powerhouse because of their fragmented states prior to unification, leading to needing a hard work ethic to get by. They also inherited the holy Roman empires administrative mindset, and had them less diluted than the rest of Europe since the eastern empire lasted centuries longer.

Here’s the citation that Wikipedia gives: https://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/no-copyright-...

There definitely were a lot of factors, and lax copyright was one of them.

Interestingly enough, it's a rather bad article that goes for framing things in a certain light...like mentioning Prussia's copyright law from 1837 and then going on to say way later: "The market for scientific literature didn't collapse even as copyright law gradually became established in Germany in the 1840s." No precise date there...which is 1845, as I mentioned in another comment, where the "Deutsche Bund" extended their own copyright law which existed beforehand. Prussia's law is insofar worth mentioning as it was really modern and comprehensive for its time....which isn't acknowledged at all in the article. The way they used Prussia's law from 1837, they could have used another state's one where printing businesses had "copyright" (printing privileges) for two years if they used it (as an example), and that started in the late 15th century, instead. Or they could have used the French-style copyright laws introduced in some states in the early 1800s due to the French invasion. Of course, due to the plethora of states and the lack of an encompassing law which the "Deutsche Bund" had to establish first, one could just hop across a border and copy a work, thus rendering the copyright law of a state effectively useless. That's also the reason why I didn't bother mentioning it at all in my other comment but here it's relevant because the article writes: "Germany, on the other hand, didn't bother with the concept of copyright for a long time", right before mentioning Prussia's 1837 law which is just straight up nonsense.

Germany is absent Google Street View.

Er no: https://goo.gl/maps/Ajtkg3DWnnCRnNK18

There are a few strange comments about Germany in this thread.

Is there some internet movement whose pastime it is to make Germany look backward? What do you get out of it?

All countries are backwards in some way. No big deal. Love Germany BTW. Haven’t been there for a long time now so I should go back soon!

And "backwards" depends on one's vantage point, anyway.

Indeed.

And they use cash everywhere, what is this? Are we back in the 90s?

Oh, so sorry that we prefer to not be reliant on third parties, having our transaction histories be sold etc. Just like how we were the last country where Firefox had the majority in marketshare because we like(d) our privacy, so too do we like having control of our money, despite the banks' and government's attempts to undermine it by restricting the use of cash, pushing CCs on people and so on. And if you want to pay with some card, phone or whatever in a supermarket, you can do so.

Germany does well because there is a fairly low level of unemployment, and unions have board representation = they get ALL the financials = they know when things are good and bad, and by general cross industry co-operation only ask for wage increases when the company can afford it. There have been occasions where wages went down - for the good of the company. Similar to Japanese unions. In addition, the spread between the lowest wages and the average is small by US standards, so even the lower paid people can get by OK. In the USA the unions demand beyond what the companies can afford = the US auto and machine tool business was exported to Taiwan, Japan, Korea and now China - whose quality gets better every year. See what tunnel diggers and crane operators get in New York if you want a shock and an answer to why US subways and highrises cost so much (as well as land costs) and corporate real estate rent extortion = where the next crash will come from as business taxes are applied to corporate rentals for residences.

Sandhogs made an average of $45/hr in NYC. National average appears to be $22. That's high but not crazy. It's a dangerous job that can easy kill your coworkers or ruin millions of dollars worth of work. I personally would not to work with some fucktard making 10/hr if my life will depend on him.

Cranes can also kill coworkers and cause millions of dollars in damages. The operators should get a premium.... https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303936704576399...

$82/hr with 56 hours of overtime a week. Okay that's just excessive union bullshit.

> $82/hr with 56 hours of overtime a week. Okay that's just excessive union bullshit.

If the company can afford it and still make a profit (which would mean their labor is generating >$82hr in value!), then it's not "bullshit." It's smart moves by the union, and evidence that the higher-ups who don't do dangerous work are/were the ones being absurdly overpaid.

The prices of e-books, which currently account for less than 1 percent of all book sales in Germany, are regulated by the Buchpreisbindung.

I must be missing something fundamental because I don't understand how you could hope to enforce that. If I was running a website selling eBooks I would not pay the slightest bit of attention as to the physical location of my customers.

Every online shop has to consider the location of the customer because of legal requirements.

How so if I'm B2C getting payment from PayPal? Maybe if I'm B2B and want to have a deal with some Germany company\institute.

Various VAT and sales taxes often apply based on where the purchaser is, not where the seller is.

So if I sell an ebook from the US to someone in Germany, I believe I'm supposed to retain and remit VAT for Germany. If someone is in France and buys the ebook, I have to retain and remit the French VAT to France, etc.

There are some thresholds where if I sell below that, I don't think I have to remit, and those seem to vary at least across Europe, let alone all the US states and other countries.

Personally, I believe it's a mess and geographically based governments really don't know how to manage virtually based human interactions and they're just stamping old systems onto new ones. Yet, AFAIK, that's why a B2C seller is supposed to know the physical location of the buyers.

Even if you do something like that, there may be some other enforcement (e.g. through customs or the postal service). But they'll probably not care unless you're a big fish.

Also, it probably helps that German is mainly spoken in three countries: Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. Some quick googling leaves me with the impression that Austria has similar regulations, and the OP said Switzerland was considering adopting them. I'm guessing all almost all the publishers of quality German-language books are based in one of those countries, and they would probably be unwilling to be associated with a scheme to undermine the regulations.

Do you honestly think that PayPal will continue collecting payments from German customers for you if they get a court order from a German court telling them to stop?

You might be able to continue selling a small amount to a few Germans who have a bank account in another country or who will pay you in cryptocurrency, but the vast majority of your customers won't go to the trouble.

PayPal will send relevant records to the German authorities on the regular for tax reasons and transparency. If they violate German and/or EU laws, they will get fined hundreds of millions, if not billions. And lose their licenses. They don't risk that.

Why? If I have a website based in the US and I accept PayPal the worst someone in Germany can do to me is dispute the charge and get a refund. I have no presence in Germany nor will I ever set foot there.

That will work until German law enforcement notices and gets PayPal to shut down payments to you from German customers. They won't even work with legal but controversial industries like pornography. They aren't going to stick their neck out for something that is flagrantly illegal.

>mantra that price is everything, and lower is always better than higher.

Quality decides what 'better' is, not price. A tool made by a craftsman with much better materials will, itself, be used to create superior results.

There are two kinds of book readers in the world, my friend.

Yes, it may have advantages. But every advantage comes with disadvantages.

Same with Uber, which is forbidden in Germany. Once you get used to Uber you wonder, how you were you able to ever live without it. Germany is a backward country. Digitization is 3rd world there. Looks, like under Merkel the country has been asleep for two decades. I am not sure they are going to wake up.

Uber isn't forbidden in Germany, it even has a presence here[1]. The difference is that something like unlicensed drivers aren't allowed (which makes sense). You always have the rather good public transportation system as well as professional drivers. For some journeys, there are also websites that connect you to other people, so that you can share a ride on a private basis.

[1] https://www.uber.com/global/de/u/wir-sind-hier/

Don't you have taxis there? Or are they just terrible (like ours used to be 10 years ago)?

I've never used Uber (don't like how invasive the app is) but I do use taxis regularly and since Uber started operating here I've found that the general quality of the taxi service has improved dramatically. Turns out state-sponsored quasi-monopolies aren't that great after all...

Uber pays drivers very badly and operates at a loss in order to destroy every other business in the industry. It’s American VC money attempting to wipe out cab companies the world over so they can capture what’s left

Uber's a strange one. The thing is that the US taxi industry before Uber was also pretty corrupt, abusive and inefficient. A few drivers do well knowing the system, companies existed based on connections to the city, most drivers were very marginal with high turn-over, fares were high and companies were slow to take advantage of the web.

So Uber replaced abusive inefficiency with abusive efficiency and provided many more jobs of a similar quality to what taxi driving was before.

Source; once drove a taxi, had friends driving both Uber and taxi. The general response was "not better or worse, just different". Maybe Uber has gotten worse but so have many things...

I don’t think I buy this reasoning. Operating a taxi doesn’t require a huge capital expense. So even if we accept your premise, once Uber raises prices way above what they used to be, someone can just create an old-schools taxi company with a decent app, lease cars and go ahead.

But I don’t buy the premise in the first place. Cab companies aren’t going out of business in any city which I frequently visit. They improved their offering (apps, you don’t have to pay with cash etc.) and they’re competing just fine.

Uber will achieve profitability some time this year. How will your change your narrative then to villify them? And cab companies are notoriously corrupt. You're actually defending them?

And cab companies are notoriously corrupt.

In Germany?

I'm no expert and I've visited Germany only a couple of times (again, only Berlin and Hamburg), but don't they have like an awesome public transportation system? Uber is great, alright, but when subway/train/buses work so good, I don't think Uber is all that necessary.

Except when there's only one bus a day on Sundays, etc.

I have noticed Uber pricing is slowly rising.

Wait until they put all taxi services out if business, and lobby politicians more heavily than now.

They proved money can buy a Proposition.

It's pure dumping. Burn an astounding amount of money on subsidising your product to undercut competitors and on advertising, then once you got the market on your hands jack up the prices.

But that strategy is probably impossible in a market where the cost to entry is fairly low.

Suppose Uber drives out literally all cab companies out of the market in some city and rises prices to absurdly high levels. Creating a brand new cab company isn’t that hard. Lease cars, create a decent app, advertise a little and you’re good to go.

I think they were hoping that their runway extends to self-driving.

Then a well-capitalized firm could suddenly leverage their scale. Order and maintain a fleet of 200,000 driverless cars, and you can get costs lower than an individual driver with his single vehicle and inefficient fleet management tools.

>Some of these companies have been tightening their belts for years. But the pandemic seems to have emptied what was left of the bargain bin. The average Uber and Lyft ride costs 40 percent more than it did a year ago, according to Rakuten Intelligence, and food delivery apps like DoorDash and Grubhub have been steadily increasing their fees over the past year. The average daily rate of an Airbnb rental increased 35 percent in the first quarter of 2021, compared with the same quarter the year before, according to the company’s financial filings.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/08/technology/farewell-mille...

Dunno about the taxi situation in Germany but in Sweden the local taxi operations have their own apps. So if one wants to get hold of a cab, it’s just to install their app and request a ride. (It’s convenient, but not cheap – but I’m not sure that cheap taxi rides should be a universal human right.)

Sweden also has Uber and Bolt though, and is lightyears ahead of Germany technologically (high usage of cards, Swish, etc.)

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