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Comment by vmception | Hacker News Reader

Congratulations Israel, that was a close one.

This was a necessary stepping stone to get Lapid into office in a maximum of two years.

If this government can stick together long enough to pass the necessary reforms to avoid future PMs from enacting extreme resolutions like Netanyahu did for so long, Israel will be an attractive place to continue funding with US taxpayers as the center government will be able to match US civil rights ideals and implement due process instead of rationalizing destructive responses based on rumors. Its not so absurd to imagine getting a court order to seize a property and prosecute individuals that are using military grade munitions. Right now it might seem to be, but it isn't.

If the government doesn't stick together long enough, Lapid gets into office sooner, but it would remain to be seen if there would be any will for restricting the PM power or passing reforms at that point.

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>Israel will be an attractive place to continue funding with US taxpayers

Hopefully not, US taxpayers should see this aid spent on themselves in their own nation.

Right. But as this is a constant across all US administrations' heads of state, as well as super majority of representatives in Congress it is currently useless to debate that and acknowledge the reality: it will be less objectionable to much of US population if Israel is able to implement due process to all of its citizens that more closely matches what occurs in the US.

> Useless to debate

It seems like you just outlined why it is necessary to debate. Think of how many positions used to have overwhelming majority in Congress, only to be overturned after citizens pushed the issue, by publicly debating it when it was unpopular.

> But as this is a constant across all US administrations' heads of state, as well as super majority of representatives in Congress it is currently useless to debate that

Just wait 10 years until most new cars are electric, and we’ll see whether or not that still holds.

I would argue that it's supported across all governments in the US because there isn't must debate or awareness surrounding it.

I have my doubts about that one, but that could be because my own filter bubble includes general awareness of it.

I usually skip the stages of grief and go straight to acceptance, and looking at how to make it more tenable.

There are some who believe that not even a single dollar should flow out to foreign aid so long as there is, for example, an American child experiencing hunger (and there are millions of them at this very moment).

That's a bit short sighted, though. Foreign aid is an investment, and a tool to solidify your soft power.It is worth it even without considering any humanitarian aspect (which you should, but not everybody does).

Running a slightly less ridiculous military-industrial complex would free plenty of funds to fix just about any issue there might be in the US (except of course the big one, climate change). Second is having a slightly less ridiculous tax system.

> some who believe that not even a single dollar should flow out to foreign aid so long as there is, for example, an American child experiencing hunger

Thankfully, not enough to be politically relevant. Because the alternative is letting the world degrade to the point that we’re shipping that child out to a war.

> Thankfully, not enough to be politically relevant. Because the alternative is letting the world degrade to the point that we’re shipping that child out to a war.

I think this is exactly what politicians would like you to believe. You should take a look at how the foreign aid budget gets spent in reality.

>Its not so absurd to imagine getting a court order to seize a property and prosecute individuals that are using military grade munitions. Right now it might seem to be, but it isn't.

Ah hem. The Second Amendment would like a word...

There is nothing in theory keeping anyone in the United States from owning or even using military grade munitions. Just paperwork. And all too much at that. If you're going to be seizing property, due process. Your due process you seem to be espousing reads "have use military grade munitions -> seize and prosecute".

Those of us that like to safely own and have things that go boom or have military applications would appreciate it if you'd describe due process as it should be, "prosecute, secure beyond reasonable doubt conviction -> seize property", though even that is open to question as the property to be seized should reflect the crime committed. If felony theft is committed, property should transfer to next of kin, or liquidated with proceeds going to next-of-kin.

Order matters.

Besides which, what is the big deal with Israel anyway? Besides people who read way too much Revelations, and think entirely too much of the United States as a lynchpin in that, I've seen very little to recommend keeping up a military industrial pipeline coffer lining exercise in that part of the world. The U.S. is quite literally being the mother of all enablers in that regard.

Owning and using arms are very different. The ownership typically has an avenue available in all parts of the US. If the avenue isn't broad enough or too restrictive then the courts re-broaden it on 2nd amendment grounds. Using is much more tightly restricted and illegal in most areas of the US, there is no area of the US where you can shoot mortars off of somebody else's building, at someone else's property, without consequence from the state itself.

But the primary difference between areas within the US borders and areas within Israel's borders is how the consequence materializes.

In the US the expected response would be an investigation, finding the munitions, taking the munition as evidence, finding the owner or user, interviewing people, indicting and convicting the owner, seizing the owners assets or finding the building somehow culpable too, only for the purpose of temporary ownership by the state, not destruction. If something occurred during the investigation or the presence of a law enforcement, the law enforcement may shoot back on the spot.

In Israel, right now the expected response is lobbing a missile at the building and gaslighting everyone that questions that particular approach.

...and then Israel can build its own fighter jets? Count us in!

It's not "aid." It's fiscal transfer to vassal states (though 75% of it really goes to US corporations' pockets - aid isn't dollars but vouchers to spend on US products at 4x the market price) within the US empire. Just ask any non-voting subject of the empire.

BTW in numbers it's $4B/year - $3B to US firms, $1B to Israel. Our GDP is about $400B. Would we buy our independence for $1B per year, if the US was selling/if the world worked that way? You bet!

(And don't get me wrong, it might be the best empire to be the vassal of for Israel which is too small to be independent. Just let's call it what it is.)

Israel is known for selling arms to regimes that abuse human rights. Like Myanmar.

> Israel is known for selling arms to regimes that abuse human rights.

Also, for being such a regime.

This is absurdly selective. Are there any arms manufacturing countries, including the Saints in EU and US who haven’t sold arms to repressive regimes?

You don’t even have to scratch the surface. Is Saudi Arabia a freedom loving democracy?

1. Is this discussion about the Saudi Arabian government or the Israeli government? I also have stuff to say about Saudis too but that's not the topic right now.

2. "Oh but, what about <X>"... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

And by the way I am not anti-semitic, if that is what you were trying to imply with "absurdly selective".

Israel has many high value products to export besides weapons. Israel can enjoy prosperity without having to resort to trading weapons with such regimes.

I don’t think it’s whataboutism if every country in the set does it. It’s just a part of being in the business of war. If you sell arms to resolve geopolitical conflict, you’ve eventually got blood on your hands no matter how much due diligence you do.

Do you think not talking about problems will make the world better?

What do you suggest I do instead?

We should talk about problems when we encounter them. The more specific the better.

Why should Israeli weapon manufacturers be held to higher evaluative standards than others? Whataboutism is useless to answer this question; it is a stick to beat your opponents in order to stop pursuing this line of questioning.

Is it not the point of Israel to be a Jewish state?

Judaism imposes duties on each Jew. Religious duties in the form of commandments.

How about following those commandments? If you say the commandments do not matter then you are saying that as a Jew, Judaism doesn't matter. In that case, you don't need a state don't you?

If you want to be free to practice your religion, do it. But do it properly, not only the parts you like.

Completely true, Rwanda (details suppressed by courts), Bosnian massacre... you name it.

It looks like you've been using HN primarily for political/ideological battle. We ban accounts that do that, regardless of what they're battling for or against, because it's destructive of what HN is supposed to be for.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting in the future, we'd be grateful. That means thoughtful, substantive comments that engage with curiosity rather than enemies.

Edit: it looks like we've had to warn you about this multiple times before. Please fix this.

Agreed, dang. I'll abstain from doing that in the future.

I see this argument often and it is pretty ridiculous. Israel is still the beneficiary of billions of dollars worth of US taxpayer dollars every year. We shouldn't be spending that kind of money on your nations security when we have homeless and starving Americans not being taken care of.

Since Israel has to spend the money on US hardware, that money actually goes to maintain Jobs in the US military industry.

Maybe giving away killing machines isn't the best way to stimulate the economy.

> Since Israel has to spend the money on US hardware, that money actually goes to maintain Jobs in the US military industry.

What a shitty cycle.

Yes, a shitty cycle in a shitty world. If not for the threat of China, I don't think the U.S. military industrial complex would have as much merit, but, under that (growing) threat, I think anyone who values freedom, democracy, and progressive ideals should see merit in the U.S. maintaining and growing capability.

To do that, it seems like the defense industry needs "stuff to do". Like a muscle, that sector atrophies if left unused. It's counterintuitive, though -- why spend so much money on a glorified Skunk Works project like the F35? Why double down and start producing hundreds of them despite their issues? Because it generates/maintains experience and lessons and keeps the metabolic pathways that turn material into materiel active. If you skipped the extra steps and had the government just sustain the defense industry on welfare while it does nothing right up until we have a massive conflict, things are going to go much more poorly for you.

> If not for the threat of China...

The military industrial complex will always have a bogeyman ready.

Well, some of them like Hitler and present day CCP are more wrll suited than others.

We can spend that money directly on our military.

There's no need to funnel it through Israel, which gains more of the benefit than we do.

How much of those jobs in the US military industry is going to people who need food, water, and/or shelter?

> Since Israel has to spend the money on US hardware, that money actually goes to maintain Jobs in the US military industry

Israel is also a gem of technological innovation. We probably get the public spending back in NYSE listing fees and trading profits alone.

> US military industry.

What a completely depressing world

It's also the security of the only enclave of gay rights and feminism in one of the most barbarously anti-progressive regions in the world. Whether or not that adds incentive is subjective, but framing it like paying for just "a nation's security" sounds like propping up Luxembourg's independence from France and Germany.

American problems at home are bad though. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as

Israel is not unique in this regard. Lots of US allies live with hostile neighbors and poor human rights records.

Besides, Israel's support for gay rights and feminism is hardly universal. Spend some time in an orthodox neighborhood if you don't believe me.

> Besides, Israel's support for gay rights and feminism is hardly universal. Spend some time in an orthodox neighborhood if you don't believe me.

I think you are kicking in open doors here.

But unlike a few kilometers away it won't get you kicked from a rooftop, it will only get you angry looks.

Very possibly you don't want the US to be an empire and to spend money on the "security" of Israel (eg preventing us from developing fighter jets - for our own security, no doubt) or eg Germany which can't even give asylum to Snowden who broke the news that your intel agencies eavesdrop on their Chancellor's phone. Just don't blame the vassals. Raise this point with the imperial government. You're a voting subject, maybe you can pull it off.

(It could be that for the US taxpayer the empire is a good deal. eg could you print all those dollars and get the entire world to hold them without the empire? You get a nice windfall from this. But again it's between you and your government. Maybe if you called yourself an empire, it would enable more open and productive discussions wrt cost/benefit analysis per vassal state.)

"It's fiscal transfer to vassal states"

So what does Israel do in return?

Provide technology to the US and a testing field for US developments.

The Patriot anti-missile systems were shit before Israeli technology was used to improve them.

It's not like Israel wouldn't have happily sold that tech to the US even if it got zero military aid from them.

The israel lobby is too powerful to ever have their funding cut. Very few in Washington are critical of israel and those that are will be labled anti-semetic because no distinction can ever exist between criticism of israel and anti-semitism apparently.

It's truly pathetic how openly American polticians will kowtow to israel and even china these days. Whatever they are getting in return must be worth it.

Compliant politicians don't necessarily have to get anything in return. Punishment and the threat of it can motivate behavior, just like positive reinforcement.

Anyway, I wouldn't personify these countries and assign them motivations. Geopolitics is complicated, and there are many people pulling strings across many nations, complete with complicated rivalries and partnerships. The support for a modern Israeli state in the first place started outside of what is now Israel. So, you can't assume pressure to support Israel all comes from Israel itself, purely in its self-interest.

Every thousand spent abroad in an unstable country is ten thousand saved ten years later when a military operation is needed or humanitarian aid is sent.

"Hopefully not, US taxpayers should see this aid spent on themselves in their own nation."

Are you against the US giving aid to any other country, or just to Israel?

That’s a weird binary - maybe it’s okay to give aid to some countries (that are poor, don’t have half their population espousing racist AF views, that haven’t undermined the US itself)?

>This was a necessary stepping stone to get Lapid into office in a maximum of two years.

It's very debatable whether the coalition would even survive that long.

>If the government doesn't stick together long enough, Lapid gets into office sooner

Technically yes, but looking at the distribution of parliament, Lapid won't have the votes to pass much, and would have significant difficulty keeping the seat. Nethanyahu or anyone who'd replace him in Likud would have a decent chance of forming a government without an election.

> Israel will be an attractive place to continue funding with US taxpayers

Probably not. The US supported Israel to keep Iran/Russia in check in the region and frighten the rest. If the US is pulling support, it's probably going to rely on Iran (the legitimate heir?) to run the place. They'll have no incentive to keep propping Israel.

Imo, that's why Netanyahu tried to spark a war with Iran. They went on to make several alliances with Arab countries, in a bid to create a military alliance against Iran. He was wrong, however, in that Arab countries (surprise, Saudia Arabia) was more interested in making peace with Iran than starting an all out war.

For that, Netanyahu tried to spark a conflict and he had the right ammo for this (he knew the guys in Gaza will retaliate). At surface, it looks like Netanyahu hates the Gaza guys (Hamas) and they hate him. In reality, their existence depends on this conflict.

It seems, however, that everyone is willing to move on. There will be peace in the future and also higher oil prices :)

> The US supported Israel to keep Iran/Russia in check in the region and frighten the rest.

This is an excuse that Jewish in America and Evangelicals use to rationalize broader support from Americans. It is almost as weak as the 2000 year old land claim arguments from some Jewish Nationalists, and weaker than the doomsday prophecies that Evangelicals feel obligated to accelerate at the expense of everyone else so they can ride away on a cloud with Jesus while the planet descends into chaos.

The US has bases in almost every surrounding country of Israel, and literally invaded all the countries that border Iran. It can lob missiles and strike at nuclear facilities in Iran if it wanted to from anywhere. It has the rest of NATO on the European subcontinent to keep Russia in check.

The US can easily tell Israel to pound sand and make good on the supposed idea of aligning with Russia. Nothing of value would be lost.

If it sounds absurd to imagine the fiction where Peru is paying for Israel's defense budget, then it is absurd for the US to be involved too.

"stick together long enough....", I don't think that's going to happen. There's no way this government will last 2 years, I doubt it will even last 3 months.

That's fine though, another far right extremist PM gets outed faster and Lapid gets in sooner. They just need to make it so Netanyahu - a very familiar face in Israel - doesn't get back in, and that a future PM doesn't get in the same endless hold over the public and all resources.

Close indeed. Undermining democracy seems to be the new trend.

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